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you

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[Music]

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this session will inform our community

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about historic and current efforts to

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address the social cultural

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philosophical ethical and other

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conceptual issues in the field of

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astrobiology we have three pairs of

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speakers each pair featuring a natural

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scientist and a humanistic scholar each

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pair will engage in a 10-minute dialogue

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about a question or topic they've chosen

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and plenty of time will be allotted

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afterwards for dialogue amongst the

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speakers and with all of you Lucas is

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going to moderate discussion and he's

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also going to come up here after I'm

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finished and introduce our speakers and

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we encourage you to continue the

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dialogue throughout the rest of the

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conference

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so I'm going to talk just a little bit

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about historical efforts to address

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social and conceptual issues in

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astrobiology and also current initial

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initial supported by the NASA program to

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date efforts to address what what has

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been called so far societal impacts of

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astrobiology have been sparse sporadic

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and disconnected these efforts have been

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initiated largely by natural scientists

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and the records of these efforts show

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that they have been largely constrained

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by the scientific worldview what I would

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call scientistic sinking they've also

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been largely Western centric and I would

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even argue us-centric

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and much of the effort has been set

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eccentric but astrobiology today is a

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global endeavor focused on the search

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for evidence of past or present

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microbial life in the solar system and

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the possibility of life and exoplanet

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systems and discussion of the issues at

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hand today needs to broaden and focus

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accordingly and in my work I like to

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think about astrobiology and culture

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what does astrobiology do and mean in

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the context of culture what does it do

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or mean for people in different cultures

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people with different worldviews the

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earliest record I found of a NASA

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activity that pulled together a

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multidisciplinary group of scholars to

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address the social philosophic and

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humanistic impact of the discovery of

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extraterrestrial life is a report called

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life beyond Earth in the mind of man and

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it's a transcript of a NASA sponsored

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symposium that was held in Boston in

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1972 to address the question

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how much human beings react to the

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discovery of life beyond Earth and the

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participants in this symposium were

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Ashley Montagu and anthropologist Philip

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Morrison physicists Carl Sagan Krister

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spend all seojin and George Wald

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biologists then we fast-forward all the

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way up to the late 1990s when the

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astrobiology program really began to

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expand and the community as well the

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NASA astrobiology program toward the

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late 1990s early 2000s got involved with

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the American Association for the

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Advancement of Sciences dialogue and

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science ethics and religion and

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co-sponsored a series of workshops

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organized by douceur on the

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philosophical ethical and theological

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implications of astrobiology those

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workshops were held in 2003 2004 and a

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report was published in 1999 a workshop

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on the societal implications of

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astrobiology was held at the NASA Ames

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Research Center

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I don't think headquarters was involved

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in that and that workshop was organized

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to address implications of astrobiology

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for human psychology society and culture

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and the contributions that the social

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sciences can make to the field and there

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is a report available on that workshop

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in 2009 the SETI Institute in California

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held a workshop to develop a roadmap of

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societal issues relating to astrobiology

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participants in the workshop which

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included myself agreed that the product

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of the workshop would not be a roadmap

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for the astrobiology program or

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community but a roadmap of issues for

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interested members of the social

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sciences and humanities a paper was

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published in astrobiology with this

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roadmap and that workshop was funded by

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the the NASA Astrobiology Institute not

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the headquarters program the NASA

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Astrobiology community published its

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first science roadmap in 1998 and we had

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updated roadmaps in 2003 in 2008 and

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then in 2015 we have the next iteration

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the NASA Astrobiology strategy which

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does not identify specific goals

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objections and questions relating to

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social and cultural issues but it does

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include really a very interesting

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appendix written by Lucas mix and Connie

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Burtka who's not here

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of us today and some of the topics that

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they raise as issues that we might want

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to think about and work on the role of

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epistemology is Tamala G in astrobiology

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what are the comparative standards of

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evidence in astrobiology related fields

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it's a definition of life necessary to

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the pursuit of estor biology so that's

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kind of an example and that strategy is

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available online so you can read the

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whole appendix which I would recommend

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if you're interested in a subject

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coincident with the development of this

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strategy NASA Astrobiology led at this

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point by Mary Wojtek who's with us today

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initiated a number of activities

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intended to broaden and diversify the

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community of scholars participating in

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the ongoing dialogue and to refocus this

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dialogue on the possible cultural

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impacts of discovery of extraterrestrial

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microbial life the scope of NASA's

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activities is specified by law the NASA

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act of 58 and these activities do not

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include an ongoing program of research

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into these kinds of issues however the

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law does include language allowing NASA

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to study the effects or implications of

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the work that it does so astrobiology

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funding for recent activities is

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intended as seed funding to provide

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opportunities for broader participation

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by scholars from multiple disciplines

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three activities that are have been

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ongoing over the past three to five

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years and some of them are wrapping up

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because again this is a short-term

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project except for one hour the

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slumber'd NASA Library of Congress Chair

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in astrobiology

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and we actually have two chairs here

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today in a past in the current chair and

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the center of theological inquiry

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2015-17 study and residence project and

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inquiry on the societal implications of

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astrobiology and the 2015-2016 NASA

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asked astrobiology debates project and

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again if you are interested in more

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information on those activities see my

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blog post

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Bloomberg chair was conceived by Barry

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Bloomberg and named after him and it was

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created to support scholars interested

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in the intersection of the sciences and

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humanities and the work that these

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chairs had done as

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fascinating there have been a lot of

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public programs as well as private

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activities and a lot of private study

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David Grinspoon was the first Bloomberg

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chair Steve deck came next and Astoria

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named Nathaniel comfort and then louise

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campos is with us today and i say it's

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high for a woman's perspective let the

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next chair be a woman but i have no

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inside information on whether that will

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happen and in 2014 2015 instead of

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appointing a chair the bloomberg chair

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group decided to sponsor a series of

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interdisciplinary dialogues on

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astrobiology and they were on

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astrobiology and the religious

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imagination rethinking life on earth

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beyond the role of paradigm shifts and

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science and human self understanding and

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historical cultural and artistic

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perspectives on astrobiology and i was

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very lucky to be able to participate in

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all those dialogues met kelly smith it

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was a participant in one of the

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dialogues many many interesting ideas

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and perspectives so that was really a

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wonderful project and there is some

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record in terms of webcasts of the

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public programs from those dialogues one

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thing I observed as a social scientist

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during those dialogues were that the

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natural scientists who are participating

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tended to be quite optimistic about the

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human future on earth and in space while

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the humanistic scholars were virtually

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all pessimistic so that's you know we

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have different world views as to the

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center of theological inquiry project we

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have a at least a few participant space

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at Lucas was a participant of fellow you

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call yourselves fellows right last year

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in Eric person it's probably here he's a

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participant this year and if I forgotten

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anybody else oh and Frank Rosen's leg

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that's right it's participating this

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year as well and questions guiding that

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inquiry are along the lines if there are

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many different forms of life known and

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unknown to us what does it mean to be

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alive now we've heard a lot of that

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question in some form or other over the

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past three days I'm not going to read

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all the questions for the sake of time

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you can find them all online the debates

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project was really terrific

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it was very well organized

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and involved University and secondary

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education students and it was an

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opportunity for them to hone their

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debate skills as well as learn about the

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science of astrobiology and the

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organizers of the debates project pulled

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in a lot of experts both from the

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Natural Sciences and from philosophy and

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ethics it was very very interesting I

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was lucky enough to participate as a

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judge in in the final competition

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michael mayer was a judge as well i know

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michael myers here somewhere and so

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we'll be around later if you have any

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questions about any of these activities

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and i'm going to turn it over to Lucas

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to introduce our dialogue thank you for

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coming as you you all know some of the

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most exciting conversations happen over

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beer at astrobiology conferences and one

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of the challenges was to get some of the

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really interesting aspects of that

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conversation tied together with some of

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the humanities research and some of the

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fabulous speakers who have come to join

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us so I would like to introduce for our

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first pair we have Luis Campos who is an

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associate professor of history at the

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University of New Mexico

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he is the a senior fellow at the Robert

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Wood Johnson Foundation Center for

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Health Policy his ph.d is in history of

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science from Harvard which is where I

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met him he works on the intersection of

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genetics and society and recently

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published a fascinating book called

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radium and the secret of life which

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looks at the beginnings of modern

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synthetic biology he is the fourth and

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current Bloomberg Chair of astrobiology

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at the Library of Congress and he will

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be talking with Sarah Walker whom all of

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you probably already know but I will say

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she is the assistant professor of Earth

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and space exploration at Arizona State

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University and deputy director of the

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Beyond Center for fundamental concepts

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in science she got her PhD in physics

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from Dartmouth and is a theoretical

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physicist and astrobiologist working on

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the origin and nature of night life nice

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little topics she has recently released

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from matter to life information and

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causality from Cambridge Press which I

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would recommend as well please alright

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hello everyone I thought I would show

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you a few pictures of library Congress

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it's the place you often hear about but

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if you ever have a chance to come and

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visit please do and I will come and give

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you a tour around this wonderful

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People's Palace sorry this doesn't seem

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to be there we go advancing here and and

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it was a remarkable thing to sit not

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there we go wonderful thing to arrive at

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the library and to see all the amazing

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kinds of things that are there even

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books that have bindings like that on

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them which is really quite something we

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00:12:24,329 --> 00:12:21,640
don't make looks like that anymore do we

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00:12:25,950 --> 00:12:24,339
and then I discovered the email address

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00:12:31,020 --> 00:12:25,960
that they had given me meant that I had

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discovered Luka just by complete chance

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right so out of all the audiences in the

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00:12:37,829 --> 00:12:34,210
world that would appreciate this email

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address it is it is you guys so yeah so

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there's wonderful ways that one could do

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a deep cultural history at the Library

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00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:42,640
of Congress and I hope there are many

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more Lumbergh chairs to come home

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explore these things I thought it was

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fun to find the little drawer there that

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00:12:53,250 --> 00:12:51,250
had the Durer star chart with four

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exclamation point on it as something

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that even the people in the map division

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were very happy about you know lots of

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00:13:01,440 --> 00:12:58,440
deeper histories we could look at how

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astronomy and biology came together etc

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00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:03,310
etc how some of our more recent

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depictions of the Trappist one system

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00:13:10,590 --> 00:13:08,650
might compare to earlier images of the

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00:13:12,420 --> 00:13:10,600
deluge back in the 19th century we could

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00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:12,430
bring in interesting art historians to

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00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:14,770
analyze these things that is not what I

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00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:15,010
do

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00:13:19,710 --> 00:13:18,610
I read dead people's mail that's the the

326
00:13:21,510 --> 00:13:19,720
fun thing of reading other people's

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00:13:23,370 --> 00:13:21,520
correspondents and reconstructing

328
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:23,380
certain stories this was from Joshua

329
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:25,510
Lederberg papers something that he sent

330
00:13:29,250 --> 00:13:27,490
to Carl Sagan and if you can see on the

331
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bottom it says well this mission answers

332
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:30,670
at least one big question are there

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other planets like ours in

334
00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:34,720
universe so you've probably seen other

335
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:37,750
images like this one very familiar one

336
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:41,110
for for some of us and we'll be future

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00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:42,250
historians who will look at this

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00:13:45,569 --> 00:13:43,690
particular moment of these sorts of

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00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:45,579
discoveries that land on the front page

340
00:13:51,090 --> 00:13:48,910
of the New York Times and on the same

341
00:13:53,249 --> 00:13:51,100
day on my Facebook feed an artist had

342
00:13:55,079 --> 00:13:53,259
created this image and I'm sure this is

343
00:13:58,050 --> 00:13:55,089
also something that will be analyzed by

344
00:14:00,840 --> 00:13:58,060
future cultural historians looking at

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00:14:02,790 --> 00:14:00,850
our particular moment here I use archaic

346
00:14:03,809 --> 00:14:02,800
technology sometimes there's lots of

347
00:14:05,699 --> 00:14:03,819
different ways that one has to

348
00:14:08,369 --> 00:14:05,709
reconstruct the past including sometimes

349
00:14:09,749 --> 00:14:08,379
even tapping into the card catalog Carl

350
00:14:10,590 --> 00:14:09,759
Sagan in particular is a wonderful

351
00:14:13,470 --> 00:14:10,600
person to research at the library

352
00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:13,480
there's 1,700 boxes of his stuff there

353
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:16,240
that's 2 million items I think it's

354
00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:17,610
really kind of remarkable and there are

355
00:14:22,980 --> 00:14:20,110
13,000 books that come in every day

356
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:22,990
Lucas had just mentioned my book here

357
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:24,490
and so I wanted to give you a quick

358
00:14:29,660 --> 00:14:26,170
little story about these intersections

359
00:14:32,519 --> 00:14:29,670
of synthetic biology and of astrobiology

360
00:14:35,970 --> 00:14:32,529
and what I'm calling in my project life

361
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:35,980
as it could be this particular man back

362
00:14:41,069 --> 00:14:38,410
in 1905 John Butler Burke working at the

363
00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:41,079
Cavendish laboratory in Cambridge

364
00:14:46,650 --> 00:14:43,360
thought that he had found new insights

365
00:14:48,170 --> 00:14:46,660
into the origin of life and this seems

366
00:14:51,329 --> 00:14:48,180
to be kind of an early moment where

367
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:51,339
spontaneous generation research was

368
00:14:56,129 --> 00:14:53,490
being relabeled into origins of life

369
00:14:58,009 --> 00:14:56,139
research here you can see the

370
00:15:01,050 --> 00:14:58,019
description putting radium into

371
00:15:06,660 --> 00:15:01,060
sterilized bullion he produced these

372
00:15:08,220 --> 00:15:06,670
lifelike swarms excuse me this was

373
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:08,230
reported across both sides of the

374
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:11,170
Atlantic Ocean kind of remarkably here's

375
00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:13,600
the setup here he thought that in a

376
00:15:18,629 --> 00:15:16,240
model for the early Earth would be more

377
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:18,639
intensely radioactive and so he took

378
00:15:22,889 --> 00:15:20,170
some radium which was all the rage at

379
00:15:25,049 --> 00:15:22,899
the time put it into some beef bouillon

380
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:25,059
here and produced these things that were

381
00:15:31,290 --> 00:15:27,970
half radium and half microbe and so he

382
00:15:33,650 --> 00:15:31,300
called them radios they grew and

383
00:15:37,199 --> 00:15:33,660
subdivided over the space of a few weeks

384
00:15:38,519 --> 00:15:37,209
they decayed in sunlight but these were

385
00:15:40,499 --> 00:15:38,529
these forms that he thought would be

386
00:15:41,490 --> 00:15:40,509
illustrative a model for the origin of

387
00:15:43,740 --> 00:15:41,500
life on the

388
00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:43,750
earlier--the this is with a camera

389
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:46,630
lucida and so you see they begin to look

390
00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:48,880
less and less like things you might find

391
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:50,110
with a photograph but he called him a

392
00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:51,730
photograph and published them in his

393
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:54,220
book so there are interesting deeper

394
00:15:59,490 --> 00:15:56,170
connections we can look at between the

395
00:16:00,930 --> 00:15:59,500
origin of life and and efforts at

396
00:16:03,870 --> 00:16:00,940
biological engineering of trying to

397
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:03,880
control and predict the future of what

398
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:06,490
life could be so that was my previous

399
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:08,560
project and one of the things that kind

400
00:16:12,630 --> 00:16:10,720
of symbolizes wonderfully the things

401
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:12,640
that I'm discovering now was a birthday

402
00:16:18,260 --> 00:16:15,490
card that was sent by Herman J Muller

403
00:16:20,940 --> 00:16:18,270
who was also very interested in these

404
00:16:22,860 --> 00:16:20,950
phenomena of radium and life now if I

405
00:16:25,230 --> 00:16:22,870
can get past here this is the nature

406
00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:25,240
article on it the public display of it

407
00:16:29,460 --> 00:16:27,670
here is from Muller's papers where he

408
00:16:31,020 --> 00:16:29,470
thought radium would be a really

409
00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:31,030
interesting mutagen to use and he began

410
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:33,670
to do x-ray mutagenesis in Drosophila as

411
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:36,250
a result of this and he was a mentor to

412
00:16:40,260 --> 00:16:38,890
Carl Sagan and they talked about the

413
00:16:41,970 --> 00:16:40,270
possibilities of life on other worlds

414
00:16:44,010 --> 00:16:41,980
what it would look like Muller was very

415
00:16:47,490 --> 00:16:44,020
interested in engineering new forms of

416
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:47,500
life and of other possible life forms

417
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:50,490
that could come to come to exist and

418
00:16:56,460 --> 00:16:54,250
Sagan then in 1955 I believe it was sent

419
00:17:00,600 --> 00:16:56,470
Muller a birthday card which was an

420
00:17:02,970 --> 00:17:00,610
image of Mars from 1955 I think it was

421
00:17:04,710 --> 00:17:02,980
that had a red thread across it and said

422
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:04,720
the thread of destiny rises ever higher

423
00:17:09,439 --> 00:17:06,970
or words to that effect and so it's kind

424
00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:09,449
of a wonderful way that we can see

425
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:12,310
long-term earlier studies at the origin

426
00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:14,890
of life trying to understand how it

427
00:17:17,790 --> 00:17:16,270
might have emerged to how we might model

428
00:17:19,590 --> 00:17:17,800
that ties in

429
00:17:21,120 --> 00:17:19,600
excuse-me with people who are otherwise

430
00:17:22,350 --> 00:17:21,130
very interested in trying to think about

431
00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:22,360
how we might engineer new kinds of

432
00:17:27,770 --> 00:17:24,880
living systems using ionizing radiation

433
00:17:30,210 --> 00:17:27,780
and other forms and who might be able to

434
00:17:32,820 --> 00:17:30,220
give insights into other forms of life

435
00:17:34,350 --> 00:17:32,830
that could exist in the universe so it's

436
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:34,360
taken me through a number of other

437
00:17:38,850 --> 00:17:36,810
debates on in hiren sea and contingency

438
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:38,860
simpson of course the non problems

439
00:17:44,190 --> 00:17:40,450
humanoids was a very big piece at the

440
00:17:45,450 --> 00:17:44,200
time and be the common structure that i

441
00:17:48,420 --> 00:17:45,460
see that i think is a very interesting

442
00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:48,430
thing to look at more between the

443
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:51,310
history of efforts to create life in the

444
00:17:57,330 --> 00:17:54,850
test tube to synthesize it from scratch

445
00:17:59,100 --> 00:17:57,340
and how that was claimed to have been

446
00:18:01,260 --> 00:17:59,110
successful at many points over the last

447
00:18:02,580 --> 00:18:01,270
century and at every point we shifted

448
00:18:05,130 --> 00:18:02,590
what we thought the fundamental feature

449
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:05,140
of life was so that we then said it

450
00:18:09,510 --> 00:18:07,090
didn't actually happen after all that

451
00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:09,520
mode of conducting science in the future

452
00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:11,080
perfect I think is something that might

453
00:18:15,630 --> 00:18:13,390
be a useful thought for what

454
00:18:17,550 --> 00:18:15,640
astrobiology is future might look like

455
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:17,560
that we might make lots of progress in

456
00:18:21,420 --> 00:18:19,570
understanding the nature of life and the

457
00:18:23,070 --> 00:18:21,430
context for its emergence without ever

458
00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:23,080
actually reaching a moment where we say

459
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:24,880
oh how we've done it or we might reach

460
00:18:28,980 --> 00:18:26,080
several moments where we think that we

461
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:28,990
have so the questions that I had in mind

462
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:32,050
that I'd like to quick offer to Sara

463
00:18:37,380 --> 00:18:34,330
here have to do with this sort of weird

464
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:37,390
story about radium and life here about

465
00:18:41,820 --> 00:18:39,760
thinking about substrates for life other

466
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:41,830
than those that we are familiar with and

467
00:18:45,630 --> 00:18:43,930
how they might be useful for us and in

468
00:18:48,750 --> 00:18:45,640
light of kind of mid-century comments

469
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:48,760
from NW Peary and other people who said

470
00:18:53,130 --> 00:18:50,170
that there's often a tendency to

471
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:53,140
associate life with whatever the newly

472
00:18:57,330 --> 00:18:54,730
kind of discovered type of phenomenon is

473
00:19:00,990 --> 00:18:57,340
that we have magnetism or chirality

474
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:01,000
optical activity proteins etc and so

475
00:19:05,370 --> 00:19:02,650
when we when we look at that when we

476
00:19:07,380 --> 00:19:05,380
look at ideas that the genetic code

477
00:19:09,690 --> 00:19:07,390
itself comes from cultural ideas of

478
00:19:11,670 --> 00:19:09,700
cryptography in the Cold War when we

479
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:11,680
look at concepts of habitability that

480
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:14,050
come from concepts of abodes much

481
00:19:18,330 --> 00:19:15,850
earlier on through RAND Corporation

482
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:18,340
reports that talk about the habitability

483
00:19:23,310 --> 00:19:21,210
of plants per man there's a way that

484
00:19:28,220 --> 00:19:23,320
scientific understandings of life in

485
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:28,230
every decade in every period basically

486
00:19:32,730 --> 00:19:30,490
reflect the culture that produced them

487
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:32,740
and so given that that seems to be the

488
00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:34,690
case of what the historians see and what

489
00:19:37,770 --> 00:19:36,640
they think about over time I'd like to

490
00:19:40,170 --> 00:19:37,780
ask Sarah you know what does this mean

491
00:19:42,030 --> 00:19:40,180
for her claims about going digital with

492
00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:42,040
life given that we have all the digital

493
00:19:51,110 --> 00:19:44,470
things around us so I will toss over to

494
00:19:59,640 --> 00:19:57,660
all right so I will probably answer your

495
00:20:00,810 --> 00:19:59,650
question through my comments and then I

496
00:20:02,940 --> 00:20:00,820
can dress it a little bit more

497
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:02,950
specifically so I put what is life

498
00:20:06,030 --> 00:20:04,570
Progress and problems but I actually

499
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:06,040
probably should have said that this is

500
00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:08,320
really just a disciplinary perspective

501
00:20:12,750 --> 00:20:11,470
on the question of what is life and so

502
00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:12,760
we have been seeing that throughout this

503
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:14,080
conference that different people

504
00:20:18,870 --> 00:20:15,970
approach the problem in very different

505
00:20:20,430 --> 00:20:18,880
ways I was trained in cosmology and so I

506
00:20:22,230 --> 00:20:20,440
tend to think about life as a

507
00:20:24,140 --> 00:20:22,240
cosmologists oh think about life and

508
00:20:26,550 --> 00:20:24,150
that is probably a very non-traditional

509
00:20:28,860 --> 00:20:26,560
perspective on thinking about living

510
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:28,870
systems so I wanted to try to give you

511
00:20:34,050 --> 00:20:31,210
sort of the cosmologists I view of life

512
00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:34,060
but always remembering that when we're

513
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:35,500
talking about the problem what is life

514
00:20:39,870 --> 00:20:38,080
it's a very deep conceptual issue and so

515
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:39,880
I think what really we need to figure

516
00:20:42,780 --> 00:20:41,290
out is how are these disciplines

517
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:42,790
actually saying the same thing or where

518
00:20:48,570 --> 00:20:47,050
they saying something different so I

519
00:20:51,090 --> 00:20:48,580
felt kind of compelled to put this slide

520
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:51,100
up it's a little obligatory at this

521
00:20:54,270 --> 00:20:52,450
stage we actually had a whole discussion

522
00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:54,280
in the laws of life session yesterday

523
00:20:58,590 --> 00:20:56,710
about this seminal book that or one

524
00:21:00,690 --> 00:20:58,600
shortage I wrote but the thing that

525
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:00,700
really resonates for me about this book

526
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:02,410
is actually his conjecture that other

527
00:21:06,450 --> 00:21:03,970
laws of physics were necessary to

528
00:21:07,770 --> 00:21:06,460
describe life and so for me the

529
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:07,780
physicist is that actually what

530
00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:10,090
motivates me to be interested in

531
00:21:16,860 --> 00:21:12,070
thinking about living systems and what

532
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:16,870
excites me about astrobiology and it's

533
00:21:23,310 --> 00:21:18,930
fascinating for me thinking about life

534
00:21:24,810 --> 00:21:23,320
how how this intersects with with some

535
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:24,820
of the conceptual issues that we really

536
00:21:28,620 --> 00:21:26,650
do face in the kind of questions we ask

537
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:28,630
as astrobiologists so this is one of my

538
00:21:34,530 --> 00:21:32,050
favorite quotes about our current

539
00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:34,540
knowledge of physics which is that the

540
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:35,740
theory of everything is a theory of

541
00:21:39,060 --> 00:21:37,090
everything except those things that

542
00:21:41,610 --> 00:21:39,070
theorized and so the reason for bringing

543
00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:41,620
this up is if we could imagine that we

544
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:43,840
had an understanding of life and we even

545
00:21:49,050 --> 00:21:46,810
had a theory of living systems we had a

546
00:21:49,950 --> 00:21:49,060
theory like a theoretical astrobiology

547
00:21:52,590 --> 00:21:49,960
in the same sense that we have a

548
00:21:56,430 --> 00:21:52,600
theoretical physics would it be actually

549
00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:56,440
a theory of things that theorized and is

550
00:21:59,580 --> 00:21:58,090
that an interesting or relevant question

551
00:22:01,169 --> 00:21:59,590
to ask is that is that

552
00:22:05,070 --> 00:22:01,179
the way we should be framing the

553
00:22:06,930 --> 00:22:05,080
question our current status of how we

554
00:22:09,389 --> 00:22:06,940
think about life in the scientific

555
00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:09,399
community is a compendium of different

556
00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:11,200
perspectives and so this paper is

557
00:22:17,879 --> 00:22:15,370
actually quite remarkable in terms of

558
00:22:21,180 --> 00:22:17,889
how it has collected all the various

559
00:22:22,919 --> 00:22:21,190
definitions for life in one paper and

560
00:22:24,690 --> 00:22:22,929
try to extract a definition as a

561
00:22:27,330 --> 00:22:24,700
compilation of the various definitions

562
00:22:29,669 --> 00:22:27,340
so this is kind of a really interesting

563
00:22:31,619 --> 00:22:29,679
insight into the current state of our

564
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:31,629
knowledge in the field we're at a state

565
00:22:35,070 --> 00:22:33,129
where we have so many definitions that

566
00:22:37,710 --> 00:22:35,080
you can actually accumulate definitions

567
00:22:39,149 --> 00:22:37,720
and make a new definition and sometimes

568
00:22:42,629 --> 00:22:39,159
people ask me why I have an IP address

569
00:22:45,269 --> 00:22:42,639
in there that was actually a mistake but

570
00:22:47,609 --> 00:22:45,279
I left it and I'll kind of allude to

571
00:22:50,580 --> 00:22:47,619
that in a minute about which gets to the

572
00:22:52,379 --> 00:22:50,590
information aspect is is actually you

573
00:22:57,379 --> 00:22:52,389
know maybe that's part of the story of

574
00:23:01,440 --> 00:22:57,389
life so there's a lot of discussion

575
00:23:03,930 --> 00:23:01,450
about what life is and how we should be

576
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:03,940
thinking about the problem and so one of

577
00:23:09,180 --> 00:23:07,690
the the conceptual issues in that

578
00:23:11,489 --> 00:23:09,190
question that I think is really

579
00:23:15,029 --> 00:23:11,499
interesting is what scale are we even

580
00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:15,039
talking about and so usually we'll think

581
00:23:20,009 --> 00:23:17,769
about life as a chemical phenomena this

582
00:23:22,379 --> 00:23:20,019
is the way that we have really been

583
00:23:23,759 --> 00:23:22,389
trained to think about it and in

584
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:23,769
particular national biology we're often

585
00:23:28,859 --> 00:23:25,330
talking about looking for chemical

586
00:23:30,029 --> 00:23:28,869
products of life but all of you a lot of

587
00:23:33,629 --> 00:23:30,039
people in this room actually probably

588
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:33,639
flew in for this conference over Phoenix

589
00:23:39,930 --> 00:23:35,129
that might have seen a view like this

590
00:23:46,109 --> 00:23:39,940
this is life is it as much life as the

591
00:23:47,549 --> 00:23:46,119
chemistry happening inside yourself what

592
00:23:50,850 --> 00:23:47,559
about all of these different levels of

593
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:50,860
organization and the biosphere and so

594
00:23:54,509 --> 00:23:52,720
when physicists are thinking about life

595
00:23:57,149 --> 00:23:54,519
in particular from a complex systems

596
00:23:58,649 --> 00:23:57,159
perspective oftentimes they're making

597
00:24:00,210 --> 00:23:58,659
the argument nowadays that life is

598
00:24:01,950 --> 00:24:00,220
actually the hierarchy of these

599
00:24:03,539 --> 00:24:01,960
structures it's not any one individual

600
00:24:05,070 --> 00:24:03,549
level it's actually the structure as a

601
00:24:07,529 --> 00:24:05,080
whole and I think this is a really

602
00:24:08,909 --> 00:24:07,539
interesting kind of shift in the way

603
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:08,919
that we're thinking about the problem

604
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:12,369
and so these transitions in our thinking

605
00:24:14,730 --> 00:24:13,090
are actually real

606
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:14,740
interesting is this going to be a new

607
00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:16,330
way of thinking about it is a useful way

608
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:18,280
of thinking about it does it help solve

609
00:24:22,380 --> 00:24:20,110
problems like the problem of the origin

610
00:24:24,660 --> 00:24:22,390
of life to think about the origin

611
00:24:27,090 --> 00:24:24,670
problem as an actual multi scale problem

612
00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:27,100
that you don't just need the molecules

613
00:24:29,910 --> 00:24:28,480
to come together first but you actually

614
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:29,920
need things to happen at different

615
00:24:38,580 --> 00:24:32,130
scales populations at the same time as

616
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:38,590
individual components so so what we've

617
00:24:42,450 --> 00:24:41,050
alluded to the fact that I'm kind of

618
00:24:43,890 --> 00:24:42,460
obsessed with information and it's

619
00:24:46,350 --> 00:24:43,900
probably because we do live in a digital

620
00:24:49,590 --> 00:24:46,360
age so I think I'm totally biased by the

621
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:49,600
current you know state of knowledge but

622
00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:51,850
one thing that I think is if you take

623
00:24:57,390 --> 00:24:54,310
this view of life at the hierarchy there

624
00:24:58,650 --> 00:24:57,400
is you have a problem of looking at all

625
00:25:00,690 --> 00:24:58,660
of these different scales looking at

626
00:25:02,580 --> 00:25:00,700
things like cities and cells what could

627
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:02,590
possibly be common about those that you

628
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:04,090
could say they're both life they're both

629
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:06,850
the same thing at their core and the one

630
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:08,650
thing that maybe stands out in that

631
00:25:11,940 --> 00:25:09,970
regard is that all of these different

632
00:25:13,860 --> 00:25:11,950
scales process information and they have

633
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:13,870
information associated with them so in

634
00:25:17,310 --> 00:25:15,310
the origins community we often have

635
00:25:21,090 --> 00:25:17,320
debates about metabolism versus genetics

636
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:21,100
and genetics is interpreted as being

637
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:23,050
sort of an informational role in the

638
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:24,970
cell but in this sense information is

639
00:25:27,810 --> 00:25:26,290
much more distributed property of

640
00:25:30,210 --> 00:25:27,820
networks so it's kind of a different

641
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:30,220
concept of information than what we

642
00:25:34,740 --> 00:25:31,840
traditionally think about in the origins

643
00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:34,750
community and just to give one example I

644
00:25:38,490 --> 00:25:36,310
love this example about thinking about

645
00:25:40,290 --> 00:25:38,500
different scales and thinking about what

646
00:25:44,060 --> 00:25:40,300
life is we don't usually think about

647
00:25:47,580 --> 00:25:44,070
cities is alive but you might think of a

648
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:47,590
slime mold as a live and you'll notice

649
00:25:54,690 --> 00:25:50,410
that these two things have very similar

650
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:54,700
patterns that's not by coincidence what

651
00:25:58,670 --> 00:25:56,530
was done in this experiment with a slime

652
00:26:01,230 --> 00:25:58,680
mold is this is the city of Tokyo and

653
00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:01,240
there are particular locations of subway

654
00:26:05,580 --> 00:26:03,760
stations in Tokyo and the engineers in

655
00:26:07,890 --> 00:26:05,590
Tokyo had a particular design challenge

656
00:26:10,140 --> 00:26:07,900
of building the subway based on the

657
00:26:13,050 --> 00:26:10,150
where those locations could be and that

658
00:26:16,140 --> 00:26:13,060
basically informed the design of the

659
00:26:18,330 --> 00:26:16,150
entire city in this experiment the food

660
00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:18,340
sources were basically distributed at

661
00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:20,110
the same distribution as the city of

662
00:26:23,830 --> 00:26:22,240
Tokyo and so you get the same kind of

663
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:23,840
informational patterns

664
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:30,290
and so this is an exercise in looking at

665
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:32,330
it from a really radically different

666
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:34,310
perspective and so the reason I just put

667
00:26:38,380 --> 00:26:36,290
up this paper that we wrote on this

668
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:38,390
perspective here is just to just

669
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:40,250
demonstrate that if you have a very

670
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:42,290
different disciplinary review the things

671
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:43,910
you think about being critical to life

672
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:45,410
are very different than the traditional

673
00:26:51,130 --> 00:26:48,650
view and so when we have these

674
00:26:52,270 --> 00:26:51,140
conversations about living systems we

675
00:26:54,430 --> 00:26:52,280
need to really think about these things

676
00:26:57,250 --> 00:26:54,440
so I am running out of time I'm just

677
00:27:02,320 --> 00:26:57,260
going to UM talk about do I have a

678
00:27:04,450 --> 00:27:02,330
minute okay that's fine I will anyway we

679
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:04,460
have time for discussion all right thank

680
00:27:14,110 --> 00:27:12,530
you so it's terrible when we have so

681
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:14,120
many fascinating things to talk about

682
00:27:18,010 --> 00:27:16,250
but we're going to be a little bit

683
00:27:19,780 --> 00:27:18,020
brusque today just to make sure that you

684
00:27:22,210 --> 00:27:19,790
get a chance to ask people questions if

685
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:22,220
you have them our second group we have

686
00:27:25,740 --> 00:27:23,930
John burrows who most of you know

687
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:25,750
professor of Oceanography and

688
00:27:30,430 --> 00:27:27,710
astrobiology at the University of

689
00:27:33,220 --> 00:27:30,440
Washington with woody Sullivan he edited

690
00:27:35,410 --> 00:27:33,230
planets and life he got his PhD in

691
00:27:37,450 --> 00:27:35,420
marine microbiology from the University

692
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:37,460
of Washington and has been instrumental

693
00:27:42,580 --> 00:27:39,530
in the formation of the dynamic

694
00:27:43,830 --> 00:27:42,590
astrobiology program that exists there

695
00:27:46,750 --> 00:27:43,840
today

696
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:46,760
he was co-chair of the Bloomberg

697
00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:49,250
dialogues and astrobiology and religion

698
00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:52,910
history and philosophy and the arts and

699
00:27:59,200 --> 00:27:55,910
works on the SETI Institute science

700
00:28:01,210 --> 00:27:59,210
advisory board I know he's also had many

701
00:28:04,060 --> 00:28:01,220
conversations with monks and priests

702
00:28:07,420 --> 00:28:04,070
about science that give him a unique

703
00:28:09,460 --> 00:28:07,430
perspective he will be talking with

704
00:28:11,950 --> 00:28:09,470
Hester over mom who teaches religious

705
00:28:13,210 --> 00:28:11,960
studies at the University of Arizona she

706
00:28:15,730 --> 00:28:13,220
works on the intersection between

707
00:28:17,410 --> 00:28:15,740
religion science and psychology with a

708
00:28:19,690 --> 00:28:17,420
particular interest in how they play out

709
00:28:22,150 --> 00:28:19,700
in modern medicine she got her master's

710
00:28:24,850 --> 00:28:22,160
at the Free University in sacred texts

711
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:24,860
in comparative religion where she had to

712
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:27,290
learn seven languages which I find

713
00:28:32,350 --> 00:28:30,290
entirely daunting she also has a PhD

714
00:28:34,330 --> 00:28:32,360
from the University of Leiden in

715
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:34,340
psychology and philosophy of religion

716
00:28:37,539 --> 00:28:36,530
she has published on that with a

717
00:28:48,269 --> 00:28:37,549
particular interest

718
00:28:50,169 --> 00:28:48,279
in consciousness non-tech part of this

719
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:50,179
discussion and actually have a

720
00:28:56,169 --> 00:28:52,610
discussion and I have been asked to

721
00:28:58,810 --> 00:28:56,179
start off as then I don't want to call

722
00:29:00,669 --> 00:28:58,820
myself the ugly duckling but the odd one

723
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:00,679
out in this group as being a theologian

724
00:29:06,399 --> 00:29:03,710
trained in Holland in Europe in a duplex

725
00:29:09,399 --> 00:29:06,409
or dough which theology means there that

726
00:29:10,810 --> 00:29:09,409
your academic and not faith-based but

727
00:29:12,729 --> 00:29:10,820
then all the money comes from

728
00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:12,739
faith-based organizations so I have

729
00:29:18,399 --> 00:29:15,049
never figured that out until I came to

730
00:29:21,159 --> 00:29:18,409
America never followed the money but now

731
00:29:22,989 --> 00:29:21,169
that I'm here in America can really

732
00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:22,999
become interested in the

733
00:29:30,970 --> 00:29:26,960
interdisciplinary dialogue between the

734
00:29:33,159 --> 00:29:30,980
humanities and Sciences as I very much

735
00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:33,169
struck that we in the humanities and I

736
00:29:38,229 --> 00:29:36,289
speak of religious studies and truly the

737
00:29:41,739 --> 00:29:38,239
humanities not social sciences are

738
00:29:46,239 --> 00:29:41,749
monolingual and build walls to keep the

739
00:29:49,239 --> 00:29:46,249
nasty evil empire of science out and and

740
00:29:51,639 --> 00:29:49,249
that deep kind of knee-jerk reaction

741
00:29:54,879 --> 00:29:51,649
that that is the enemy and the other

742
00:29:58,539 --> 00:29:54,889
that needs to be either attacked or

743
00:29:59,979 --> 00:29:58,549
ignored is I think a real problem and

744
00:30:01,479 --> 00:29:59,989
then problem that I want to hope to

745
00:30:05,019 --> 00:30:01,489
address with John it's kind of the

746
00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:05,029
science phobia so what I want to talk

747
00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:08,590
and ask John about as the scientist here

748
00:30:14,379 --> 00:30:11,200
coming from the humanities is

749
00:30:17,409 --> 00:30:14,389
astrobiology is inter interdisciplinary

750
00:30:20,049 --> 00:30:17,419
by nature and of course attracts a

751
00:30:23,159 --> 00:30:20,059
fascination and imagination of all the

752
00:30:26,139 --> 00:30:23,169
disciplines but we talk about it as

753
00:30:28,989 --> 00:30:26,149
astrobiology isn't there a need for an

754
00:30:32,769 --> 00:30:28,999
astro humanity or even more so of an

755
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:32,779
Astro phenomenology and I want you to I

756
00:30:36,690 --> 00:30:34,970
will have more dialogue and I can follow

757
00:30:41,919 --> 00:30:36,700
up with more information

758
00:30:43,210 --> 00:30:41,929
that's an interesting now is it a hear

759
00:30:46,220 --> 00:30:43,220
us

760
00:30:48,049 --> 00:30:46,230
yeah it's an interesting way to go we

761
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:48,059
actually had a little discussion this

762
00:30:53,270 --> 00:30:50,730
afternoon on this and of course we're

763
00:30:54,890 --> 00:30:53,280
very much motivated on this because I

764
00:30:57,770 --> 00:30:54,900
think of the problem of science

765
00:31:02,530 --> 00:30:57,780
illiteracy in this country and in many

766
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:05,780
corresponds in some cases to religious

767
00:31:10,970 --> 00:31:08,330
beliefs also given that we are

768
00:31:15,159 --> 00:31:10,980
predominantly a religious country in

769
00:31:21,919 --> 00:31:15,169
many many ways and so the idea is really

770
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:21,929
how do we communicate across the various

771
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:23,970
kinds of religion how do we communicate

772
00:31:30,470 --> 00:31:27,600
with them about how science actually

773
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:30,480
does interact with their belief base and

774
00:31:34,850 --> 00:31:32,730
how it interacts with their think their

775
00:31:37,310 --> 00:31:34,860
philosophical and theological base I

776
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:37,320
like to point out and running a blue

777
00:31:45,470 --> 00:31:40,770
berg dialogues with Derek Malone France

778
00:31:47,210 --> 00:31:45,480
who was a professor of philosophy

779
00:31:49,820 --> 00:31:47,220
religion at George Washington University

780
00:31:52,220 --> 00:31:49,830
and putting together

781
00:31:54,980 --> 00:31:52,230
I think the Bloomberg dialogues on

782
00:31:57,980 --> 00:31:54,990
astrobiology and religion one of the big

783
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:57,990
questions that I asked related to my

784
00:32:03,289 --> 00:32:01,200
personal interest is a better

785
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:03,299
understanding of the core rationale

786
00:32:08,570 --> 00:32:06,510
motivation for religion and why or why

787
00:32:11,150 --> 00:32:08,580
not is it essential for human existence

788
00:32:13,870 --> 00:32:11,160
and whether or not discoveries in

789
00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:13,880
astrobiology could impact those core

790
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:16,110
reasons for the origin and

791
00:32:22,010 --> 00:32:18,960
sustainability of religious beliefs why

792
00:32:25,130 --> 00:32:22,020
religion and so I please pose that to

793
00:32:27,940 --> 00:32:25,140
this group of people academics in a

794
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:27,950
variety of different you know religious

795
00:32:36,740 --> 00:32:32,250
beliefs and in many ways they found it I

796
00:32:39,230 --> 00:32:36,750
think interesting and also confusing as

797
00:32:40,970 --> 00:32:39,240
to how to actually really address these

798
00:32:44,180 --> 00:32:40,980
issues because I don't think they had

799
00:32:46,669 --> 00:32:44,190
really thought through so I'd like to

800
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:46,679
pose that same set of questions to you

801
00:32:54,330 --> 00:32:49,710
as an audience of scientists and how you

802
00:32:58,190 --> 00:32:54,340
would actually comport yourself and even

803
00:33:01,529 --> 00:32:58,200
in a sense discuss that kind of topic

804
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:01,539
with them I would also like to make one

805
00:33:10,799 --> 00:33:04,809
other point that I talked to to you

806
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:10,809
about and that is exploring and how the

807
00:33:15,390 --> 00:33:12,330
route there is a relationship between

808
00:33:19,230 --> 00:33:15,400
all of us in science and particularly in

809
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:19,240
astrobiology and how we're exploring the

810
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:21,250
unknown what we're actually trying to

811
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:25,360
find out as we look for life elsewhere

812
00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:28,210
as we try to better understand our

813
00:33:34,049 --> 00:33:30,340
origins as we better try to understand

814
00:33:35,330 --> 00:33:34,059
the origins of our universe etc and I

815
00:33:39,269 --> 00:33:35,340
realized that there's a tremendous

816
00:33:42,299 --> 00:33:39,279
parallel between that and how we try to

817
00:33:45,779 --> 00:33:42,309
explore that side of us that is not

818
00:33:48,210 --> 00:33:45,789
really scientific we could call it in

819
00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:48,220
some ways a spiritual side we can call

820
00:33:54,210 --> 00:33:50,529
it whatever we like but there is a side

821
00:33:56,580 --> 00:33:54,220
that we have and but it's still

822
00:33:59,100 --> 00:33:56,590
exploring you don't have to believe in a

823
00:34:02,130 --> 00:33:59,110
man-god to continue to explore your

824
00:34:05,730 --> 00:34:02,140
spiritual side and so what I'd like to

825
00:34:08,070 --> 00:34:05,740
do is is also have you know that kind of

826
00:34:10,889 --> 00:34:08,080
dialogue a point that I like to make

827
00:34:13,649 --> 00:34:10,899
sometimes is that part of my exploration

828
00:34:15,780 --> 00:34:13,659
in astrobiology is looking for that

829
00:34:19,700 --> 00:34:15,790
mirror that may tell me more about what

830
00:34:22,829 --> 00:34:19,710
I can become and I'll end with that I

831
00:34:27,839 --> 00:34:22,839
just want to maybe respond as the first

832
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:27,849
one in to exploring and what is the

833
00:34:33,450 --> 00:34:30,490
divide between the sciences and real

834
00:34:35,399 --> 00:34:33,460
religion and this part and I think it's

835
00:34:37,710 --> 00:34:35,409
the object subject divided as well I

836
00:34:40,230 --> 00:34:37,720
think in religion and humanities we very

837
00:34:42,619 --> 00:34:40,240
much look at the phenomenology of the

838
00:34:45,810 --> 00:34:42,629
subjective of the self of the eye

839
00:34:48,750 --> 00:34:45,820
whereas the scary part is that the

840
00:34:52,050 --> 00:34:48,760
science claims that they are objective

841
00:34:55,710 --> 00:34:52,060
data-driven and of course also have the

842
00:34:57,980 --> 00:34:55,720
power paradigm of of truth on their side

843
00:35:01,820 --> 00:34:57,990
so there is already this kind of

844
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:01,830
imbalance and tension and war kind of

845
00:35:07,020 --> 00:35:04,930
situation evolved in this kind of

846
00:35:08,130 --> 00:35:07,030
dialogue that I think is incredibly

847
00:35:11,070 --> 00:35:08,140
important for us to

848
00:35:13,590 --> 00:35:11,080
nice are we talking about the subject of

849
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:13,600
the singular the individual in this

850
00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:16,090
lifetime if we're talking about Sara's

851
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:17,710
been mentioning all these other forms of

852
00:35:22,530 --> 00:35:19,330
life and that's what you as scientists

853
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:22,540
do but to make it relevant for the

854
00:35:29,550 --> 00:35:25,210
religious the spiritual or the exploring

855
00:35:31,530 --> 00:35:29,560
you have to find that intermediate field

856
00:35:33,660 --> 00:35:31,540
and that I think both John and I found

857
00:35:36,420 --> 00:35:33,670
that in the exploring exploring of the

858
00:35:39,180 --> 00:35:36,430
self in this life and of course our

859
00:35:42,810 --> 00:35:39,190
imagination of future lives and what of

860
00:35:46,110 --> 00:35:42,820
course lives beyond this planet can

861
00:35:48,510 --> 00:35:46,120
entail now that just one more point as

862
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:48,520
some of you probably read in nature just

863
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:50,890
a couple of months ago there was an

864
00:35:54,810 --> 00:35:53,290
article based on a letter that Winston

865
00:35:57,660 --> 00:35:54,820
Churchill had written how many of you

866
00:36:01,160 --> 00:35:57,670
read that and I just think that is

867
00:36:04,740 --> 00:36:01,170
really cool because Churchill said it's

868
00:36:07,310 --> 00:36:04,750
in water for science to be a servant and

869
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:07,320
not the master of man he felt that

870
00:36:15,450 --> 00:36:12,480
appropriate policies that drew on

871
00:36:17,820 --> 00:36:15,460
humanistic values must be must be in

872
00:36:20,670 --> 00:36:17,830
place and I think that was quite

873
00:36:21,930 --> 00:36:20,680
prophetic and a lot of ways given that

874
00:36:24,090 --> 00:36:21,940
you know the time

875
00:36:27,180 --> 00:36:24,100
post war post Second World War that that

876
00:36:29,550 --> 00:36:27,190
was actually written I just want to

877
00:36:31,980 --> 00:36:29,560
follow up as a most interesting question

878
00:36:34,290 --> 00:36:31,990
for me personally is different forms of

879
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:34,300
knowing and that scientism the power of

880
00:36:39,180 --> 00:36:37,090
science kind of is silencing other ways

881
00:36:41,850 --> 00:36:39,190
of knowing and what you as scientists

882
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:41,860
can accept as other ways of knowing or

883
00:36:47,460 --> 00:36:44,800
is that all you know Zoid oh joy Oh

884
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:47,470
science and untruth and where is there a

885
00:36:57,470 --> 00:36:49,210
medium ground that we could maybe

886
00:37:03,450 --> 00:37:00,990
our last two panelists are David

887
00:37:05,370 --> 00:37:03,460
Grinspoon who is a senior scientist at

888
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:05,380
the Planetary Science Institute

889
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:08,010
he was the first Bloomberg chair of

890
00:37:13,770 --> 00:37:11,170
astrobiology author of Venus revisited

891
00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:13,780
lonely planets and earth in human hands

892
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:18,640
have I missed one okay I am constantly

893
00:37:24,750 --> 00:37:22,240
amazed at how engaged David manages to

894
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:24,760
be and how engaging he has a PhD in

895
00:37:30,390 --> 00:37:27,450
astronomy from the University of Arizona

896
00:37:32,750 --> 00:37:30,400
truly interdisciplinary in his research

897
00:37:36,540 --> 00:37:32,760
with a focus on comparative planetology

898
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:36,550
active in Venus and Titan research and I

899
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:37,810
think that he is one of the more

900
00:37:42,690 --> 00:37:39,610
successful among us and bringing

901
00:37:44,460 --> 00:37:42,700
astrobiology to a broader audience he

902
00:37:46,859 --> 00:37:44,470
will be talking with kelly smith who is

903
00:37:49,590 --> 00:37:46,869
an associate professor of philosophy and

904
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:49,600
biology at Clemson University Kelly got

905
00:37:55,830 --> 00:37:52,690
his PhD in philosophy from Duke he has a

906
00:37:57,450 --> 00:37:55,840
focus on ethics and bio technologies as

907
00:37:59,550 --> 00:37:57,460
well as philosophy related to

908
00:38:02,010 --> 00:37:59,560
astrobiology and origins of life

909
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:02,020
research he hosted the first conference

910
00:38:06,450 --> 00:38:04,090
on social and conceptual issues in

911
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:06,460
astrobiology last year which we are

912
00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:10,570
hoping to follow up on next year in Reno

913
00:38:14,940 --> 00:38:12,609
Nevada so come talk to one of us if you

914
00:38:19,830 --> 00:38:14,950
are interested in getting involved in

915
00:38:22,290 --> 00:38:19,840
that ok so I think I'm going to start us

916
00:38:24,420 --> 00:38:22,300
off here and let me just say if you like

917
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:24,430
talking about this stuff we are starting

918
00:38:28,050 --> 00:38:26,170
a new organization send me an email we

919
00:38:31,410 --> 00:38:28,060
do really good conferences Reno March

920
00:38:33,270 --> 00:38:31,420
should be very nice so David I talked a

921
00:38:34,980 --> 00:38:33,280
little bit and we thought that what we

922
00:38:37,710 --> 00:38:34,990
would do is sort of focus on the

923
00:38:40,770 --> 00:38:37,720
question questions about how to make

924
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:40,780
decisions when there are complex kinds

925
00:38:44,970 --> 00:38:43,810
of trades trade-offs involved the kinds

926
00:38:47,550 --> 00:38:44,980
of weird trade-offs you get in

927
00:38:49,140 --> 00:38:47,560
astrobiology so at the risk of sounding

928
00:38:50,970 --> 00:38:49,150
a little bit like a setup for an Abbott

929
00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:50,980
and Costello routine I'm going to ask

930
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:52,510
him a question then we're going to riff

931
00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:53,770
off of that and he's going to ask me a

932
00:39:01,050 --> 00:38:58,210
question so David how do we decide how

933
00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:01,060
careful we should be about planetary

934
00:39:06,210 --> 00:39:04,000
protection policies that's a great

935
00:39:08,260 --> 00:39:06,220
question Kelly yeah

936
00:39:12,670 --> 00:39:08,270
and by the way it's very nice to meet

937
00:39:14,349 --> 00:39:12,680
you and lovely to be here and thank you

938
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:14,359
all for being here thanks for inviting

939
00:39:24,370 --> 00:39:20,690
us when we consider a question like

940
00:39:25,779 --> 00:39:24,380
planetary protection and how much we

941
00:39:29,950 --> 00:39:25,789
should worry about how much we should

942
00:39:33,130 --> 00:39:29,960
invest in it it's really fascinating to

943
00:39:35,349 --> 00:39:33,140
me because it really does require and

944
00:39:38,460 --> 00:39:35,359
involve a melding of ethics and and

945
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:38,470
science and you know normally when we

946
00:39:48,339 --> 00:39:45,890
evaluate risk and we try to be rational

947
00:39:51,630 --> 00:39:48,349
about how much we're going to worry

948
00:39:54,910 --> 00:39:51,640
about a risk and invest in it we can

949
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:54,920
consider both the probability of

950
00:39:59,410 --> 00:39:57,530
something bad happening and the

951
00:40:02,140 --> 00:39:59,420
consequences of something bad happening

952
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:02,150
and we can be reasonably quantitative

953
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:03,890
about both say we're worrying about how

954
00:40:09,339 --> 00:40:07,130
much to invest in tornado shelters we

955
00:40:11,140 --> 00:40:09,349
can like we know something about how

956
00:40:12,609 --> 00:40:11,150
often tornadoes happen we know something

957
00:40:15,309 --> 00:40:12,619
about how much damage is done by them

958
00:40:17,019 --> 00:40:15,319
and we can say here's our estimate of

959
00:40:19,180 --> 00:40:17,029
how much it's worth to invest in this

960
00:40:22,150 --> 00:40:19,190
but then when we're really dealing with

961
00:40:24,180 --> 00:40:22,160
the unknown it's much harder to do that

962
00:40:25,809 --> 00:40:24,190
and in particular when we think about

963
00:40:29,069 --> 00:40:25,819
planetary protection

964
00:40:32,789 --> 00:40:29,079
we're often dealing with risks that seem

965
00:40:35,349 --> 00:40:32,799
incredibly tiny almost so tiny that

966
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:35,359
sometimes you can convince yourself that

967
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:36,890
it's sort of ridiculous to worry about

968
00:40:42,250 --> 00:40:39,890
them but where they are attached to

969
00:40:44,769 --> 00:40:42,260
consequences which are completely

970
00:40:46,750 --> 00:40:44,779
catastrophic sometimes existentially

971
00:40:49,930 --> 00:40:46,760
catastrophic and that's what's tricky

972
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:49,940
well you know multiplying a ridiculously

973
00:40:56,470 --> 00:40:52,910
seemingly low risk by ridiculously

974
00:40:57,849 --> 00:40:56,480
seemingly high consequence so it's we

975
00:40:59,710 --> 00:40:57,859
have to somehow find a way to balance

976
00:41:01,089 --> 00:40:59,720
that now with planetary protection of

977
00:41:03,819 --> 00:41:01,099
course we have back contamination

978
00:41:06,069 --> 00:41:03,829
bringing dangerous stuff here and

979
00:41:08,109 --> 00:41:06,079
forward contamination bringing dangerous

980
00:41:11,740 --> 00:41:08,119
stuff from earth elsewhere with back

981
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:11,750
contamination my gut feeling is that

982
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:14,079
there's really nothing to worry about

983
00:41:19,150 --> 00:41:16,490
and it's not just a gut feeling it's

984
00:41:22,450 --> 00:41:19,160
kind of an educated gut feeling based on

985
00:41:27,070 --> 00:41:22,460
knowing something about biology and the

986
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:27,080
fact that pathogens are very well

987
00:41:33,490 --> 00:41:30,770
adapted and co-evolved with hosts so do

988
00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:33,500
I think alien bugs bugs from Mars are

989
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:36,710
going to come back here and infect us if

990
00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:38,480
we just bring back some rocks and don't

991
00:41:41,590 --> 00:41:39,950
worry about it and expect them in our

992
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:41,600
labs no I'm not really that worried

993
00:41:44,980 --> 00:41:43,610
about that boat well for two reasons one

994
00:41:46,420 --> 00:41:44,990
I don't really think there's life on

995
00:41:48,730 --> 00:41:46,430
Mars and I don't think Martian life

996
00:41:50,650 --> 00:41:48,740
could hurt us and I have I could expound

997
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:50,660
on either of those but I want right now

998
00:41:56,770 --> 00:41:53,810
but here's the important point I could

999
00:41:59,170 --> 00:41:56,780
very easily be wrong about that and so I

1000
00:42:01,960 --> 00:41:59,180
don't want this policy to be based on my

1001
00:42:04,330 --> 00:42:01,970
educated gut feelings in fact I think

1002
00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:04,340
it's really smart that we assume were

1003
00:42:07,930 --> 00:42:06,110
wrong about something like that when the

1004
00:42:12,610 --> 00:42:07,940
consequence is oh if we're wrong whoops

1005
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:12,620
we wiped out life on Earth so therefore

1006
00:42:19,540 --> 00:42:14,570
there's a good reason to be much more

1007
00:42:21,460 --> 00:42:19,550
conservative than are I are scientific

1008
00:42:24,100 --> 00:42:21,470
understanding might lead us to be with

1009
00:42:26,380 --> 00:42:24,110
foreign contamination of course there's

1010
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:26,390
there's a history there and I and I'm

1011
00:42:30,580 --> 00:42:28,730
quite proud of the fact that space

1012
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:30,590
exploration has always been tied to an

1013
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:32,450
ethical consideration of this of course

1014
00:42:36,310 --> 00:42:34,130
at first it was kind of instrumental

1015
00:42:37,270 --> 00:42:36,320
instrumental in that it was well we

1016
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:37,280
don't really want to screw up the

1017
00:42:40,180 --> 00:42:38,810
scientific experiment of finding out if

1018
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:40,190
there's life there by accidentally

1019
00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:42,050
bringing life and then then finding it

1020
00:42:46,660 --> 00:42:44,720
but I think over time that evolved into

1021
00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:46,670
a bit more of a sense of responsibility

1022
00:42:50,980 --> 00:42:49,310
about the intrinsic value of life and

1023
00:42:53,260 --> 00:42:50,990
what if there are Martians what if we

1024
00:42:55,270 --> 00:42:53,270
hurt them again it seems very low

1025
00:42:59,050 --> 00:42:55,280
probability to me but I'm proud of the

1026
00:43:00,910 --> 00:42:59,060
fact that we take it seriously I it's

1027
00:43:02,740 --> 00:43:00,920
kind of like that you know that in

1028
00:43:04,930 --> 00:43:02,750
medicine they say first do no harm I

1029
00:43:06,370 --> 00:43:04,940
feel like that's a good premise for us

1030
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:06,380
as we explore the universe

1031
00:43:12,610 --> 00:43:08,570
so I'm gloved planetary protections for

1032
00:43:15,370 --> 00:43:12,620
two reasons one there's a arm of NASA

1033
00:43:16,750 --> 00:43:15,380
it's applied ethics we're forced to take

1034
00:43:18,820 --> 00:43:16,760
these ideas that we might debate

1035
00:43:20,790 --> 00:43:18,830
conceptually and say let's turn that

1036
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:20,800
into policy let's just sign it a number

1037
00:43:24,820 --> 00:43:22,970
even though we don't really know what

1038
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:24,830
number it should be and then let's keep

1039
00:43:29,290 --> 00:43:27,410
revising that and the other thing I love

1040
00:43:31,930 --> 00:43:29,300
about it is that there's a built-in

1041
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:31,940
humility it's not just about what we

1042
00:43:35,170 --> 00:43:33,170
think we know

1043
00:43:36,550 --> 00:43:35,180
what if in the future we realized we

1044
00:43:38,530 --> 00:43:36,560
were completely wrong with our current

1045
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:38,540
understanding of biology we need to

1046
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:41,770
guard against that possibility too so

1047
00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:44,480
these are some of my thoughts about your

1048
00:43:47,830 --> 00:43:46,430
question what do you think well yeah

1049
00:43:51,370 --> 00:43:47,840
I'll just add a few thoughts that I

1050
00:43:53,350 --> 00:43:51,380
think someone I think it was a Margaret

1051
00:43:54,370 --> 00:43:53,360
Race made a comment earlier on about how

1052
00:43:56,020 --> 00:43:54,380
when you ask these kinds of questions

1053
00:43:58,750 --> 00:43:56,030
it's always important to include some

1054
00:44:00,370 --> 00:43:58,760
sort of time index right so the standard

1055
00:44:01,930 --> 00:44:00,380
view and planetary protection is that

1056
00:44:03,550 --> 00:44:01,940
our main goal is to preserve the science

1057
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:03,560
and I think that makes perfect sense

1058
00:44:06,610 --> 00:44:05,090
when you're talking about the near term

1059
00:44:09,370 --> 00:44:06,620
because we don't even really know what's

1060
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:09,380
up there much less what might hurt it

1061
00:44:12,820 --> 00:44:10,970
and so first you have to get a standard

1062
00:44:14,020 --> 00:44:12,830
baseline about that kind of stuff but

1063
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:14,030
I've also heard one of the earlier

1064
00:44:17,980 --> 00:44:15,200
presenters in the planetary protection

1065
00:44:20,110 --> 00:44:17,990
session I think worrying that it seemed

1066
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:20,120
like there were going to be more people

1067
00:44:23,740 --> 00:44:22,010
coming on board and like screwing up

1068
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:23,750
this these standards about preserving

1069
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:25,730
the science and my reaction to that is

1070
00:44:29,530 --> 00:44:27,530
with that that's actually a good thing I

1071
00:44:31,210 --> 00:44:29,540
mean as a scientist you might not like

1072
00:44:33,070 --> 00:44:31,220
it but there are lots of people who have

1073
00:44:35,220 --> 00:44:33,080
fingers in these PI's who have a stake

1074
00:44:37,630 --> 00:44:35,230
in what happens and ultimately

1075
00:44:39,070 --> 00:44:37,640
scientists are good at certain kinds of

1076
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:39,080
things but they're not good at

1077
00:44:43,510 --> 00:44:40,970
everything that's relevant to making a

1078
00:44:45,730 --> 00:44:43,520
social decision and so it may be painful

1079
00:44:47,710 --> 00:44:45,740
but sometimes you have to open it up to

1080
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:47,720
people who aren't who aren't scientists

1081
00:44:50,740 --> 00:44:49,130
and I would say just to give my

1082
00:44:52,390 --> 00:44:50,750
philosopher colleagues a hard time -

1083
00:44:54,460 --> 00:44:52,400
sometimes philosophers have to actually

1084
00:44:56,380 --> 00:44:54,470
be a little bit practical you can't just

1085
00:44:58,530 --> 00:44:56,390
say that you should never ever do

1086
00:45:03,430 --> 00:44:58,540
anything that's less than ideal because

1087
00:45:06,220 --> 00:45:03,440
that that can't be done well let me ask

1088
00:45:10,150 --> 00:45:06,230
you a related question I think it's

1089
00:45:11,530 --> 00:45:10,160
related and it's not strictly about what

1090
00:45:14,170 --> 00:45:11,540
we normally call planetary protection

1091
00:45:16,270 --> 00:45:14,180
but recently there's a debate about what

1092
00:45:17,830 --> 00:45:16,280
people are calling Metis for messaging

1093
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:17,840
to extraterrestrial intelligence or

1094
00:45:23,950 --> 00:45:21,650
active SETI the notion that instead of

1095
00:45:25,900 --> 00:45:23,960
just listening we should prime the pump

1096
00:45:28,150 --> 00:45:25,910
by scent blasting some messages out to

1097
00:45:31,750 --> 00:45:28,160
nearby habitable planets and see if see

1098
00:45:35,620 --> 00:45:31,760
if we provoke a response and some other

1099
00:45:37,210 --> 00:45:35,630
scientists have said and not just

1100
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:37,220
scientists but people involved in this

1101
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:39,170
discussions that hold on there well

1102
00:45:45,540 --> 00:45:43,840
are you sure there's nothing dangerous

1103
00:45:48,990 --> 00:45:45,550
about this

1104
00:45:50,940 --> 00:45:49,000
and maybe we shouldn't do that until we

1105
00:45:52,740 --> 00:45:50,950
at least have a discussion about the

1106
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:52,750
possible dangers and it strikes me

1107
00:45:57,180 --> 00:45:55,570
there's a parallel in the aspect I was

1108
00:45:58,680 --> 00:45:57,190
just talking about planetary protection

1109
00:46:01,109 --> 00:45:58,690
where we're dealing with something that

1110
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:01,119
seems like an absurdly low risk but

1111
00:46:06,810 --> 00:46:03,520
admittedly you might not be able to say

1112
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:06,820
it's zero risk and admittedly there's an

1113
00:46:12,690 --> 00:46:09,970
existential aspect to the risk so how

1114
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:12,700
much should we worry about that uh well

1115
00:46:16,740 --> 00:46:15,010
here I'm sort of torn so personally I'm

1116
00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:16,750
just as much of a geek as anybody else

1117
00:46:19,890 --> 00:46:18,040
in the room I would love to push the

1118
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:19,900
button and send a message and then wait

1119
00:46:24,089 --> 00:46:21,490
to get a reply but the more I've thought

1120
00:46:27,210 --> 00:46:24,099
about this the more cautious I am I

1121
00:46:29,010 --> 00:46:27,220
think our best estimate is that the

1122
00:46:31,020 --> 00:46:29,020
probability of there being a problem if

1123
00:46:33,180 --> 00:46:31,030
we send a message to an alien

1124
00:46:35,460 --> 00:46:33,190
civilization is low but the error bars

1125
00:46:37,950 --> 00:46:35,470
on that are absolutely enormous right I

1126
00:46:39,690 --> 00:46:37,960
mean we we don't really have any good

1127
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:39,700
conception of what the technology of

1128
00:46:43,589 --> 00:46:41,710
alien would have five thousand years

1129
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:43,599
down the road much less a million years

1130
00:46:47,820 --> 00:46:45,730
down the road I reminded of a so most

1131
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:47,830
quote about any technology sufficiently

1132
00:46:50,010 --> 00:46:49,359
advanced would be indistinguishable from

1133
00:46:54,420 --> 00:46:50,020
magic

1134
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:54,430
I have no idea what they can and can't

1135
00:46:58,829 --> 00:46:56,890
do and I know even less about their

1136
00:47:00,810 --> 00:46:58,839
psychology their intent their social

1137
00:47:03,150 --> 00:47:00,820
structures so when someone says well

1138
00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:03,160
surely they'd be peaceful part of me

1139
00:47:06,270 --> 00:47:04,720
thinks well that's you know if I have to

1140
00:47:08,339 --> 00:47:06,280
make a bet that's a good place to place

1141
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:08,349
the bet but I'm not going to bet my life

1142
00:47:12,390 --> 00:47:10,000
savings on that I'm not going to bet my

1143
00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:12,400
children's lives so it seems that

1144
00:47:17,220 --> 00:47:14,560
however you want to try to quantify the

1145
00:47:18,780 --> 00:47:17,230
risk there is some risk there and I

1146
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:18,790
would also point out to scientist and

1147
00:47:22,740 --> 00:47:20,770
the plenary speaker on the very first

1148
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:22,750
day said something about this what you

1149
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:24,730
consider to be an acceptable risk is not

1150
00:47:28,859 --> 00:47:26,650
the product of a deterministic

1151
00:47:30,540 --> 00:47:28,869
calculation that's a psychological sort

1152
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:30,550
of thing and different people have

1153
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:33,010
different levels of risk so even if a

1154
00:47:36,390 --> 00:47:34,570
scientist thinks that the risk is low

1155
00:47:38,670 --> 00:47:36,400
and you're being a

1156
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:38,680
to oppose sending the message as I used

1157
00:47:42,930 --> 00:47:40,720
to tell pas when I was on the human

1158
00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:42,940
subjects committee people have a right

1159
00:47:48,780 --> 00:47:46,480
to be stupid you even if you're right

1160
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:48,790
that they're stupid it's not your job to

1161
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:50,530
tell them not to do these kinds of

1162
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:52,690
things so I think that's we have to

1163
00:47:57,910 --> 00:47:55,450
really keep that in mind and I would say

1164
00:47:59,600 --> 00:47:57,920
also that that

1165
00:48:01,840 --> 00:47:59,610
there's there something i like to call

1166
00:48:04,340 --> 00:48:01,850
the principal perceived inevitability

1167
00:48:06,260 --> 00:48:04,350
just because something seems like it's

1168
00:48:08,540 --> 00:48:06,270
inevitably going to happen doesn't mean

1169
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:08,550
that that voicing ethical objections to

1170
00:48:12,740 --> 00:48:11,370
it is a waste of time so you know a lot

1171
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:12,750
of people say well anybody with a laser

1172
00:48:17,630 --> 00:48:15,810
can do this I would say well having a

1173
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:17,640
conversation about maybe it's not

1174
00:48:22,070 --> 00:48:19,530
inevitable that we could do things to

1175
00:48:24,350 --> 00:48:22,080
prevent this or mitigate it right and

1176
00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:24,360
even if it is inevitable having a

1177
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:25,920
conversation about why it's not a good

1178
00:48:29,630 --> 00:48:27,930
idea might teach us some interesting

1179
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:29,640
lessons about other situations in the

1180
00:48:35,090 --> 00:48:31,410
future so I think we should be talking

1181
00:48:37,550 --> 00:48:35,100
about this more and there are other

1182
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:37,560
approaches to this other than yes we

1183
00:48:42,910 --> 00:48:39,090
should do it no we shouldn't do it

1184
00:48:45,380 --> 00:48:42,920
there's something to be said for saying

1185
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:45,390
well let's let's pause a little bit and

1186
00:48:48,530 --> 00:48:46,770
try to have some kind of a global

1187
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:48,540
discussion about this not that we'll

1188
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:50,130
ever have a perfect global discussion

1189
00:48:53,570 --> 00:48:52,170
and a perfect democratic process where

1190
00:48:55,010 --> 00:48:53,580
everybody on earth gets a clicker and

1191
00:48:56,870 --> 00:48:55,020
gets a vote you know that's not

1192
00:48:58,190 --> 00:48:56,880
realistic but that just because you

1193
00:48:59,540 --> 00:48:58,200
can't have a perfect global discussion

1194
00:49:02,300 --> 00:48:59,550
doesn't mean we shouldn't try to have a

1195
00:49:05,390 --> 00:49:02,310
broad global discussion and it is true

1196
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:05,400
that over the next say 20 years 30 years

1197
00:49:09,230 --> 00:49:07,170
we're going to learn a lot more about

1198
00:49:11,420 --> 00:49:09,240
what kind of a universe we're dealing

1199
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:11,430
with we've got the exoplanet revolution

1200
00:49:16,070 --> 00:49:13,530
here we're going to be starting to look

1201
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:16,080
for bio signatures we're going to learn

1202
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:20,090
something more than we know now about

1203
00:49:24,890 --> 00:49:23,040
some of these probabilities and we're

1204
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:24,900
going we're going to be continuing

1205
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:28,890
passive SETI and that also perhaps gives

1206
00:49:33,140 --> 00:49:31,530
us some time to try to think about how

1207
00:49:35,180 --> 00:49:33,150
you would actually sort of get global

1208
00:49:37,070 --> 00:49:35,190
bye and not just on should we or

1209
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:37,080
shouldn't we but what would we say about

1210
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:40,290
ourselves I'm not sure it's a you know

1211
00:49:44,750 --> 00:49:43,050
there's a different ethical proposition

1212
00:49:47,260 --> 00:49:44,760
that is that it's okay for an individual

1213
00:49:51,370 --> 00:49:47,270
to just go off and say I represent earth

1214
00:49:55,610 --> 00:49:51,380
than it is for some attempt at a global

1215
00:49:57,830 --> 00:49:55,620
buy-in of this so that's I think that's

1216
00:50:01,150 --> 00:49:57,840
also worth considering that not that

1217
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:01,160
there be a sort of permanent moratorium

1218
00:50:07,820 --> 00:50:04,410
but that there be a pause and some

1219
00:50:09,870 --> 00:50:07,830
attempt at broader consultation yeah

1220
00:50:11,490 --> 00:50:09,880
I'll just quickly say I agree with every

1221
00:50:12,810 --> 00:50:11,500
thing you just said I would add what a

1222
00:50:14,820 --> 00:50:12,820
lot of people have noted though that

1223
00:50:15,810 --> 00:50:14,830
it's not the formal content that's the

1224
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:15,820
only thing you have to worry about

1225
00:50:20,190 --> 00:50:17,890
there's the fact that any message will

1226
00:50:22,010 --> 00:50:20,200
convey your rough location and that you

1227
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:22,020
are really really primitive

1228
00:50:28,410 --> 00:50:27,010
technologically so the geek in me feels

1229
00:50:32,370 --> 00:50:28,420
it necessary to point out that was

1230
00:50:34,050 --> 00:50:32,380
arthur c clarke who said this

1231
00:50:35,340 --> 00:50:34,060
efficiently advanced technology is

1232
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:35,350
indistinguishable from magic

1233
00:50:39,810 --> 00:50:37,810
um I think that our speakers have done a

1234
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:39,820
really good job perhaps unintentionally

1235
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:42,970
at demonstrating for us the variety of

1236
00:50:47,670 --> 00:50:44,770
ways that you can talk about things and

1237
00:50:49,590 --> 00:50:47,680
perhaps the variety of issues that might

1238
00:50:51,690 --> 00:50:49,600
be important one of the things that

1239
00:50:53,100 --> 00:50:51,700
interests me about astrobiology is in

1240
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:53,110
bringing people together from different

1241
00:50:58,080 --> 00:50:55,920
fields we discover that lo and behold

1242
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:58,090
you know even though you're a physicist

1243
00:51:04,290 --> 00:51:01,440
pH might be the most important question

1244
00:51:05,850 --> 00:51:04,300
and so finding those people who can help

1245
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:05,860
you decide what the most important

1246
00:51:12,300 --> 00:51:08,130
question is is one of the great

1247
00:51:14,310 --> 00:51:12,310
wonderful and terrifying things with

1248
00:51:16,590 --> 00:51:14,320
that in mind I will invite people to

1249
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:16,600
have questions the bulk of our time feel

1250
00:51:25,620 --> 00:51:18,610
free to ask of a specific person or the

1251
00:51:27,060 --> 00:51:25,630
panel in general Colin Colin University

1252
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:27,070
of Victoria L felt was the right to a

1253
00:51:30,210 --> 00:51:28,720
question I think to Sarah first but

1254
00:51:33,470 --> 00:51:30,220
other people no doubt will what to chip

1255
00:51:38,100 --> 00:51:33,480
ed is from your hierarchies of life is

1256
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:38,110
Earth a living entity I love this

1257
00:51:46,730 --> 00:51:42,970
question um I would say yes but my view

1258
00:51:49,580 --> 00:51:46,740
on what living life is is very broad and

1259
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:49,590
I would include things like technology

1260
00:51:55,500 --> 00:51:52,810
obviously but but yes like Earth is life

1261
00:51:57,780 --> 00:51:55,510
and part of the reason Earth is alive is

1262
00:52:01,200 --> 00:51:57,790
because it's been reconstructed by

1263
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:01,210
living things so my definition or my way

1264
00:52:05,940 --> 00:52:03,850
of thinking about life includes both

1265
00:52:07,500 --> 00:52:05,950
what we would call traditionally things

1266
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:07,510
that are alive but also their artifacts

1267
00:52:12,090 --> 00:52:09,370
or the things that they they build and

1268
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:12,100
the things that they create so actually

1269
00:52:16,110 --> 00:52:13,570
David you have a really nice example

1270
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:16,120
that I love which is this idea of our

1271
00:52:22,450 --> 00:52:18,370
planet antique reading I mean how many

1272
00:52:23,620 --> 00:52:22,460
planets do that launch things into space

1273
00:52:25,420 --> 00:52:23,630
eight so there's something very

1274
00:52:27,940 --> 00:52:25,430
interesting happening on the surface of

1275
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:27,950
our planet and and it is doing something

1276
00:52:33,730 --> 00:52:32,210
very radical and my getting back to

1277
00:52:35,829 --> 00:52:33,740
answering Louis's question earlier which

1278
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:35,839
I kind of didn't but but this view of

1279
00:52:39,370 --> 00:52:37,730
information I mean I think we're

1280
00:52:41,859 --> 00:52:39,380
swimming in a sea of information and

1281
00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:41,869
modern technology and and so that's why

1282
00:52:44,290 --> 00:52:43,280
I like your satellite example because

1283
00:52:47,220 --> 00:52:44,300
it's really the information that's

1284
00:52:49,270 --> 00:52:47,230
launching the satellites into space yeah

1285
00:52:52,780 --> 00:52:49,280
anyone else want to weigh in on that one

1286
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:52,790
I would say yes the earth is alive you

1287
00:53:01,329 --> 00:52:57,410
need to if I can follow up then if does

1288
00:53:03,550 --> 00:53:01,339
life for long the time for which Earth

1289
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:03,560
is alive or is it just chance that we're

1290
00:53:10,420 --> 00:53:08,810
here and alive are you asking about the

1291
00:53:12,099 --> 00:53:10,430
probability the origin of life or the

1292
00:53:14,950 --> 00:53:12,109
probability of the longevity of life

1293
00:53:17,829 --> 00:53:14,960
once life has once the origin has

1294
00:53:22,810 --> 00:53:17,839
happened does that promote longevity or

1295
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:22,820
is longevity a coincidence I think it

1296
00:53:27,310 --> 00:53:25,010
promotes longevity I'd be interested in

1297
00:53:29,890 --> 00:53:27,320
what other people think and maybe even

1298
00:53:34,180 --> 00:53:29,900
from a theological perspective would be

1299
00:53:38,250 --> 00:53:34,190
interesting in my view the stability of

1300
00:53:41,470 --> 00:53:38,260
the biosphere is partly a result of the

1301
00:53:43,540 --> 00:53:41,480
fact that the biosphere is uh so

1302
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:43,550
permeated with life that the living and

1303
00:53:49,230 --> 00:53:45,920
nonliving parts of Earth are are kind of

1304
00:53:53,079 --> 00:53:49,240
hard to tease apart from one another um

1305
00:53:55,089 --> 00:53:53,089
but you know it's that makes a lot of

1306
00:53:56,500 --> 00:53:55,099
sense to me but as far as people really

1307
00:53:59,260 --> 00:53:56,510
breaking it down mechanistically and

1308
00:54:02,020 --> 00:53:59,270
identifying the stabilizing feedbacks

1309
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:02,030
versus the you know the destabilizing

1310
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:04,250
feedbacks I think I think we've still

1311
00:54:08,109 --> 00:54:06,290
got a lot of work to do to understand

1312
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:08,119
how that works yes sir do you want to

1313
00:54:15,430 --> 00:54:12,530
comment and well it's Earth is alive it

1314
00:54:18,579 --> 00:54:15,440
is created and in a religious way and in

1315
00:54:19,329 --> 00:54:18,589
the most Abrahamic ways it is alive and

1316
00:54:22,570 --> 00:54:19,339
it's sacred

1317
00:54:26,430 --> 00:54:22,580
so the value judgment is right there and

1318
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:26,440
when it will end is of course sin it's

1319
00:54:32,770 --> 00:54:30,410
finitude the last judgment and we don't

1320
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:32,780
know when that will be and that's also

1321
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:34,210
in all Abrahamic

1322
00:54:39,839 --> 00:54:36,490
religion so it will have an end and it

1323
00:54:43,980 --> 00:54:39,849
is sacred to complicate things thank you

1324
00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:43,990
thank you hi I'm Angela thank you so

1325
00:54:48,510 --> 00:54:46,510
much for the panel this question is for

1326
00:54:50,430 --> 00:54:48,520
any of the panelists I wonder if you've

1327
00:54:54,299 --> 00:54:50,440
ever encountered anyone who will go to

1328
00:54:58,940 --> 00:54:54,309
all odds or all efforts to make contact

1329
00:55:00,990 --> 00:54:58,950
with aliens despite the existential

1330
00:55:02,519 --> 00:55:01,000
consequences that that may bring and

1331
00:55:07,230 --> 00:55:02,529
whether you think there's any validity

1332
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:07,240
in that line of reasoning well I've

1333
00:55:10,589 --> 00:55:08,770
never met anybody who I mean it's always

1334
00:55:12,359 --> 00:55:10,599
easy to have a conversation in the

1335
00:55:13,289 --> 00:55:12,369
abstract when you're not standing in

1336
00:55:14,609 --> 00:55:13,299
front of a button but I had a

1337
00:55:16,529 --> 00:55:14,619
conversation just last night with

1338
00:55:19,380 --> 00:55:16,539
someone who said yep I pressed a button

1339
00:55:21,750 --> 00:55:19,390
and then we immediately got into it so

1340
00:55:24,930 --> 00:55:21,760
there people at least say that yeah I

1341
00:55:26,910 --> 00:55:24,940
actually have met someone a friend of

1342
00:55:30,569 --> 00:55:26,920
mine named Sasha Zaitsev alexander

1343
00:55:33,150 --> 00:55:30,579
zaytsev he's a Russian radio astronomers

1344
00:55:36,059 --> 00:55:33,160
retired now it's a pensioner living in

1345
00:55:38,279 --> 00:55:36,069
Moscow but he initiated some of the

1346
00:55:41,010 --> 00:55:38,289
first attempts at Medi he used that

1347
00:55:43,140 --> 00:55:41,020
radio telescope in the Ukraine and he

1348
00:55:44,700 --> 00:55:43,150
blasted some messages to some nearby

1349
00:55:47,250 --> 00:55:44,710
stars it was very controversial some

1350
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:47,260
people are really mad at him for that

1351
00:55:52,230 --> 00:55:50,170
and I I sort of feel like I could see

1352
00:55:53,609 --> 00:55:52,240
both sides of this issue he will tell

1353
00:55:55,349 --> 00:55:53,619
you there's an he has an ethical

1354
00:55:58,380 --> 00:55:55,359
obligation to do it

1355
00:56:01,109 --> 00:55:58,390
he says if we're going to listen then we

1356
00:56:02,490 --> 00:56:01,119
have an ethical obligation to broadcast

1357
00:56:06,870 --> 00:56:02,500
because otherwise if everyone's just

1358
00:56:09,269 --> 00:56:06,880
listening that's ridiculous and you know

1359
00:56:11,039 --> 00:56:09,279
and he may have a point but I mean if

1360
00:56:12,839 --> 00:56:11,049
there's a counter-argument to that which

1361
00:56:14,490 --> 00:56:12,849
I don't want to hog the mic here but but

1362
00:56:16,019 --> 00:56:14,500
the answer is yes I've met someone and

1363
00:56:18,809 --> 00:56:16,029
then there are people that have tried

1364
00:56:20,700 --> 00:56:18,819
this and it's because of that that this

1365
00:56:22,140 --> 00:56:20,710
discussion has been newly provoked

1366
00:56:25,019 --> 00:56:22,150
because it's getting more and more

1367
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:25,029
possible for people to sort of on their

1368
00:56:31,380 --> 00:56:26,890
own just decide I'm going to go and do

1369
00:56:33,569 --> 00:56:31,390
this I just want to add a theological

1370
00:56:35,339 --> 00:56:33,579
idea that we've always been messaging

1371
00:56:37,710 --> 00:56:35,349
we've been praying we've been trying to

1372
00:56:39,690 --> 00:56:37,720
communicate with the dead with with the

1373
00:56:43,650 --> 00:56:39,700
living with the future lives and we have

1374
00:56:46,109 --> 00:56:43,660
many gods ideas in some religions or

1375
00:56:47,790 --> 00:56:46,119
just one God but that messaging is part

1376
00:56:50,610 --> 00:56:47,800
of our human psyche

1377
00:56:57,720 --> 00:56:50,620
and if this is just one step further of

1378
00:56:59,910 --> 00:56:57,730
a more nuanced alien God and that that

1379
00:57:02,970 --> 00:56:59,920
question of how we relate our concepts

1380
00:57:04,740 --> 00:57:02,980
of value to aliens is a big one

1381
00:57:07,410 --> 00:57:04,750
since so many people have read Clarke I

1382
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:07,420
will recommend fiction lu has a recent

1383
00:57:12,450 --> 00:57:09,490
book called the three-body problem that

1384
00:57:14,820 --> 00:57:12,460
deals specifically with this please

1385
00:57:16,590 --> 00:57:14,830
jacob park miserably horrible space that

1386
00:57:18,630 --> 00:57:16,600
ties in very nicely with my question i'd

1387
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:18,640
like to bring up this issue of risk with

1388
00:57:22,740 --> 00:57:21,010
planetary protection maybe but i'm also

1389
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:22,750
glad you mention prayer and other types

1390
00:57:25,020 --> 00:57:24,610
of messaging that people have done so

1391
00:57:26,220 --> 00:57:25,030
risk

1392
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:26,230
mathematically is defined as the

1393
00:57:31,170 --> 00:57:27,970
probability of an event occurring times

1394
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:31,180
the magnitude of the the consequences

1395
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:32,410
and it's important remember the

1396
00:57:37,410 --> 00:57:34,090
magnitude can be positive or negative

1397
00:57:38,490 --> 00:57:37,420
and so with planetary protection we're

1398
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:38,500
mostly concerned about the negative

1399
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:40,810
consequences if life comes from mars

1400
00:57:45,510 --> 00:57:43,690
wipes out earth Nate you know infinite

1401
00:57:48,180 --> 00:57:45,520
negative consequences but the de+

1402
00:57:49,530 --> 00:57:48,190
consequences are fairly mundane in the

1403
00:57:52,530 --> 00:57:49,540
grand scheme of things astrobiologists

1404
00:57:55,260 --> 00:57:52,540
learn new things with many it's very

1405
00:57:56,700 --> 00:57:55,270
symmetric whereas you know aliens could

1406
00:57:59,280 --> 00:57:56,710
come and wipe this out in in in that

1407
00:58:00,900 --> 00:57:59,290
intense negative scenario but if you

1408
00:58:02,940 --> 00:58:00,910
read Carl Sagan Carl Sagan believed that

1409
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:02,950
aliens could also come and usher in just

1410
00:58:07,220 --> 00:58:05,170
as many positive benefits and so the

1411
00:58:09,990 --> 00:58:07,230
idea of messaging we have to be aware of

1412
00:58:11,310 --> 00:58:10,000
you know this is a symmetry that it

1413
00:58:13,410 --> 00:58:11,320
could be just as dangerous not to

1414
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:13,420
message as if we do message and then it

1415
00:58:18,420 --> 00:58:15,490
ties into the other types of messaging

1416
00:58:19,860 --> 00:58:18,430
at what point you know do we say that

1417
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:19,870
the plot the probability of Prayer

1418
00:58:23,850 --> 00:58:22,210
working is zero I mean maybe people

1419
00:58:25,530 --> 00:58:23,860
believe that but at what point do you

1420
00:58:27,810 --> 00:58:25,540
decide that a certain type of messaging

1421
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:27,820
that we're accomplishing now is totally

1422
00:58:31,530 --> 00:58:29,440
ineffective and at what point do you

1423
00:58:33,630 --> 00:58:31,540
consider this main new risk of something

1424
00:58:35,010 --> 00:58:33,640
possibly bad happening I think it's not

1425
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:35,020
really clear I think we do need more

1426
00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:37,570
discussion I'd love your thoughts are

1427
00:58:41,820 --> 00:58:40,510
you asking someone in particular anybody

1428
00:58:43,950 --> 00:58:41,830
I guess that mainly the three to my

1429
00:58:45,210 --> 00:58:43,960
right okay well I think it's an

1430
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:45,220
excellent question I think I think you

1431
00:58:48,180 --> 00:58:46,930
make a really good point that there are

1432
00:58:50,490 --> 00:58:48,190
existential risks but they're also

1433
00:58:53,070 --> 00:58:50,500
potential existential benefits and one

1434
00:58:55,230 --> 00:58:53,080
could argue that our civilization is now

1435
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:55,240
under existential risk without some

1436
00:58:58,470 --> 00:58:57,250
game-changing developments and that

1437
00:59:01,440 --> 00:58:58,480
contact

1438
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:01,450
however provoked you know however it

1439
00:59:05,940 --> 00:59:04,450
arises could be a game-changing event

1440
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:05,950
that could that could help us in

1441
00:59:10,740 --> 00:59:08,890
profound ways so a point well taken I

1442
00:59:13,980 --> 00:59:10,750
guess I would also argue that that I

1443
00:59:16,620 --> 00:59:13,990
think that the exercise of pausing and

1444
00:59:19,350 --> 00:59:16,630
trying to have a global consultation

1445
00:59:22,530 --> 00:59:19,360
about something in itself there's an

1446
00:59:24,620 --> 00:59:22,540
existential benefit of that in sort of

1447
00:59:28,170 --> 00:59:24,630
modeling what would it be like to try to

1448
00:59:31,020 --> 00:59:28,180
make a decision about something as a

1449
00:59:33,510 --> 00:59:31,030
global civilization that seems to be a

1450
00:59:35,940 --> 00:59:33,520
skill that we need to learn and this is

1451
00:59:38,660 --> 00:59:35,950
an area where we could perhaps practice

1452
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:38,670
I'll just add a little bit I think

1453
00:59:43,890 --> 00:59:41,290
there's there well-known psychological

1454
00:59:45,810 --> 00:59:43,900
biases against loss so people are more

1455
00:59:47,460 --> 00:59:45,820
loss averse than they want to actually

1456
00:59:50,100 --> 00:59:47,470
get you'll do much more to avoid losing

1457
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:50,110
five bucks than earn five bucks and then

1458
00:59:53,670 --> 00:59:51,280
you can have a debate about whether that

1459
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:53,680
makes good evolutionary sense right on

1460
00:59:57,090 --> 00:59:54,850
the other side of things I think that

1461
00:59:59,190 --> 00:59:57,100
scientists in general and I feel this

1462
01:00:01,320 --> 00:59:59,200
pull myself what's being offered is

1463
01:00:03,420 --> 01:00:01,330
something that they deeply want the

1464
01:00:05,370 --> 01:00:03,430
secrets of the universe right so that

1465
01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:05,380
biases them I think to pay more

1466
01:00:10,050 --> 01:00:07,510
attention to the positive effect well

1467
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:10,060
yeah we might all die but oh my god

1468
01:00:15,540 --> 01:00:12,010
right there they would actually open up

1469
01:00:17,370 --> 01:00:15,550
the book of knowledge so I I to me it

1470
01:00:19,740 --> 01:00:17,380
seems like that's kind of a wall shows

1471
01:00:21,060 --> 01:00:19,750
tiny chance that you'll die tiny chance

1472
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:21,070
that everything will be amazing and a

1473
01:00:26,970 --> 01:00:22,930
very large chance that nothing will

1474
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:26,980
happen if I can just jump in on that so

1475
01:00:30,150 --> 01:00:28,450
I think there's another interesting way

1476
01:00:32,460 --> 01:00:30,160
to think about it of risk not just as

1477
01:00:34,380 --> 01:00:32,470
future-oriented and as implications but

1478
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:34,390
as putting it into the context of how

1479
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:36,010
risk gets configured at certain moments

1480
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:38,650
in time the fears of back contamination

1481
01:00:43,350 --> 01:00:41,770
and that earlier discussion you know of

1482
01:00:44,670 --> 01:00:43,360
course informed science fiction writers

1483
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:44,680
like Michael Crichton the Andromeda

1484
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:46,210
Strain what I find interesting is then

1485
01:00:50,850 --> 01:00:48,130
that fictional writing informed

1486
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:50,860
discussions of biologists at some of the

1487
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:52,570
first biosafety meetings at Asilomar in

1488
01:00:55,860 --> 01:00:54,610
1975 where they talked about how we

1489
01:00:57,810 --> 01:00:55,870
needed to have better laboratory

1490
01:00:58,830 --> 01:00:57,820
safeguards for the new kind of genetic

1491
01:01:01,070 --> 01:00:58,840
engineering we're going to do it for

1492
01:01:04,020 --> 01:01:01,080
common DNA in the mid 70s so kind of

1493
01:01:05,820 --> 01:01:04,030
unrelated fields that began to talk in

1494
01:01:08,430 --> 01:01:05,830
shared ways through that shared

1495
01:01:11,670 --> 01:01:08,440
discourse of what risk could be it also

1496
01:01:13,410 --> 01:01:11,680
makes me think you know why is Medi an

1497
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:13,420
issue when does it come up and what else

1498
01:01:16,350 --> 01:01:14,050
does it

1499
01:01:17,970 --> 01:01:16,360
in that particular time so again I'm

1500
01:01:19,830 --> 01:01:17,980
trying to shift away from the future

1501
01:01:21,540 --> 01:01:19,840
implications to why do we start to think

1502
01:01:23,580 --> 01:01:21,550
that way about things at certain moments

1503
01:01:26,940 --> 01:01:23,590
in time what else is going on and the

1504
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:26,950
ability to know what another potentially

1505
01:01:31,350 --> 01:01:28,450
very powerful entity out there in the

1506
01:01:32,460 --> 01:01:31,360
world of doing when they're being very

1507
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:32,470
secretive and not sharing information

1508
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:35,770
with us is a cold war story through and

1509
01:01:41,100 --> 01:01:37,570
through right and so what does it mean

1510
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:41,110
to put the context of thinking about et

1511
01:01:45,210 --> 01:01:43,450
eyes into a Cold War context and there's

1512
01:01:46,500 --> 01:01:45,220
a lot that we could get about what the

1513
01:01:48,420 --> 01:01:46,510
implications the assumptions are that

1514
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:48,430
we're making how its natural for us we

1515
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:49,810
say to think a certain way at a given

1516
01:01:55,190 --> 01:01:52,480
time because of those contexts I just

1517
01:01:57,420 --> 01:01:55,200
want to follow up Louie on your ideas

1518
01:01:59,970 --> 01:01:57,430
actually piggybacking on what Sara said

1519
01:02:02,670 --> 01:01:59,980
that natural scientists are positive

1520
01:02:03,300 --> 01:02:02,680
future oriented and that humanists are

1521
01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:03,310
negative

1522
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:05,200
I think it's flipped here right so your

1523
01:02:10,410 --> 01:02:08,050
prayer and reaching out to the divine or

1524
01:02:12,150 --> 01:02:10,420
the other out there in space is very

1525
01:02:13,770 --> 01:02:12,160
positive right it's one of your tenants

1526
01:02:16,530 --> 01:02:13,780
that you have to do or should do maybe

1527
01:02:19,740 --> 01:02:16,540
even five times a day whereas you here

1528
01:02:21,690 --> 01:02:19,750
are really fearful what scary things

1529
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:21,700
could come down from this alien world so

1530
01:02:25,020 --> 01:02:23,290
just a psychology for me very

1531
01:02:32,370 --> 01:02:25,030
interesting as a psychology of religion

1532
01:02:34,020 --> 01:02:32,380
person hi I just wanted to start you

1533
01:02:36,690 --> 01:02:34,030
rady tell us who you are I'm sorry avi

1534
01:02:38,130 --> 01:02:36,700
Mandel NASA Goddard I wanted to sort of

1535
01:02:40,380 --> 01:02:38,140
go back to this question which someone

1536
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:40,390
raised is the idea of chance or

1537
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:42,970
randomness in the universe and life and

1538
01:02:47,010 --> 01:02:45,490
how the you know when you're talking

1539
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:47,020
with people who are either from a

1540
01:02:50,850 --> 01:02:49,210
spiritual or religious perspective

1541
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:50,860
versus a scientific perspective this

1542
01:02:54,750 --> 01:02:53,410
seems to really in the end after you you

1543
01:02:57,900 --> 01:02:54,760
know go through several layers really

1544
01:03:00,720 --> 01:02:57,910
lie at the base of of your psychology

1545
01:03:02,610 --> 01:03:00,730
and cultural perspective on how you see

1546
01:03:04,890 --> 01:03:02,620
the role of chance or randomness and I

1547
01:03:08,450 --> 01:03:04,900
guess I I would love to hear you know

1548
01:03:11,250 --> 01:03:08,460
from this panel how you see that playing

1549
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:11,260
not only physically scientifically in

1550
01:03:15,870 --> 01:03:13,170
the universe but culturally and

1551
01:03:18,450 --> 01:03:15,880
psychologically how we treat random

1552
01:03:24,090 --> 01:03:18,460
things that either have occurred in in

1553
01:03:28,870 --> 01:03:27,850
can i address that I always feel like

1554
01:03:30,820 --> 01:03:28,880
there's two sides of me

1555
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:30,830
there's the scientists era and then

1556
01:03:38,170 --> 01:03:33,530
there's the other Sarah which I don't

1557
01:03:39,790 --> 01:03:38,180
know I guess such Sarah Sarah and the

1558
01:03:42,970 --> 01:03:39,800
Sarah Sarah ultimately thinks the

1559
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:42,980
universe is a really creative place and

1560
01:03:50,380 --> 01:03:46,370
I feel like randomness must play a role

1561
01:03:52,060 --> 01:03:50,390
in that but since this is Sarah is you

1562
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:52,070
know indoctrinated into thinking that

1563
01:03:57,910 --> 01:03:53,570
the laws of physics are deterministic

1564
01:03:59,560 --> 01:03:57,920
and you know there's there's certain you

1565
01:04:02,680 --> 01:03:59,570
know there's governing principles and

1566
01:04:03,490 --> 01:04:02,690
there's a beauty in that too and so I

1567
01:04:06,790 --> 01:04:03,500
think one of the things that's really

1568
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:06,800
interesting about being a scientist is

1569
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:09,170
the dichotomy between sort of your

1570
01:04:12,490 --> 01:04:10,610
personal world view sometimes in your

1571
01:04:13,930 --> 01:04:12,500
scientific world view and and I think

1572
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:13,940
you hit on that really with this kind of

1573
01:04:18,100 --> 01:04:16,970
randomness question and and for me it's

1574
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:18,110
really about what are the creative

1575
01:04:22,570 --> 01:04:20,450
forces and and how do they actually play

1576
01:04:24,370 --> 01:04:22,580
out in physical reality and is there

1577
01:04:28,390 --> 01:04:24,380
room for the things that I feel like are

1578
01:04:29,860 --> 01:04:28,400
important to me personally one thing

1579
01:04:32,110 --> 01:04:29,870
that I would say in response to your

1580
01:04:39,010 --> 01:04:32,120
you're kind of a beautifully broad

1581
01:04:42,990 --> 01:04:39,020
question is that as astrobiologists who

1582
01:04:45,340 --> 01:04:43,000
have one biosphere to study and draw

1583
01:04:49,990 --> 01:04:45,350
supposedly universal inferences from

1584
01:04:53,050 --> 01:04:50,000
we're very at risk of over interpreting

1585
01:04:54,910 --> 01:04:53,060
random things you know we see that the

1586
01:04:58,960 --> 01:04:54,920
story of earth and and the fact that

1587
01:05:00,940 --> 01:04:58,970
life sprung up quickly and we infer

1588
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:00,950
something Universal about the

1589
01:05:04,990 --> 01:05:03,410
probability of life elsewhere and then

1590
01:05:08,620 --> 01:05:05,000
we see the fact that life stayed

1591
01:05:10,870 --> 01:05:08,630
microbial for so ridiculously long and

1592
01:05:13,810 --> 01:05:10,880
we infer that life elsewhere is probably

1593
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:13,820
mostly just microbial and then you know

1594
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:16,250
we see how long that it took half of

1595
01:05:21,430 --> 01:05:18,770
roughly half a snuggler lifetime for

1596
01:05:23,890 --> 01:05:21,440
so-called intelligent life to appear on

1597
01:05:25,660 --> 01:05:23,900
this planet and and we come to great

1598
01:05:26,890 --> 01:05:25,670
quantitative conclusions all these

1599
01:05:28,780 --> 01:05:26,900
things might just be throws of the dice

1600
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:28,790
that really don't have much meaning but

1601
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:31,010
we sort of can't help over interpreting

1602
01:05:34,900 --> 01:05:32,810
in the absence of more information that

1603
01:05:36,150 --> 01:05:34,910
we're we're seeking so I'll make a

1604
01:05:39,390 --> 01:05:36,160
comment to

1605
01:05:41,309 --> 01:05:39,400
think that there's a theologian at

1606
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:41,319
Harvard who's passed away a number of

1607
01:05:45,750 --> 01:05:44,170
years ago named Gordon Kaufman and he

1608
01:05:48,180 --> 01:05:45,760
wrote a book called in the beginning

1609
01:05:50,700 --> 01:05:48,190
creativity which is I think germane to

1610
01:05:55,740 --> 01:05:50,710
your question the way he looked at it is

1611
01:05:59,720 --> 01:05:55,750
that there's a strong creative component

1612
01:06:01,859 --> 01:05:59,730
to our universe and he used specifically

1613
01:06:04,980 --> 01:06:01,869
evolution and origin of life and

1614
01:06:09,299 --> 01:06:04,990
particularly evolution and he used that

1615
01:06:12,180 --> 01:06:09,309
as a way of trying to call then his god

1616
01:06:15,660 --> 01:06:12,190
concept as the creative force in the

1617
01:06:18,690 --> 01:06:15,670
universe so I as I said I it's a book

1618
01:06:22,500 --> 01:06:18,700
that I really have gotten a lot out of

1619
01:06:24,809 --> 01:06:22,510
and it's so and I'll add a couple of

1620
01:06:26,700 --> 01:06:24,819
cents to that I think I teach a lot of

1621
01:06:28,049 --> 01:06:26,710
evolution creationism kinds of stuff and

1622
01:06:30,180 --> 01:06:28,059
one of the things that's really hard to

1623
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:30,190
get across the students is they think

1624
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:32,650
well it's either random or it's designed

1625
01:06:36,990 --> 01:06:34,690
and you want to say look the whole point

1626
01:06:38,870 --> 01:06:37,000
of evolution is is this weird middle

1627
01:06:41,490 --> 01:06:38,880
ground between those two right it's not

1628
01:06:43,740 --> 01:06:41,500
exactly random though you could describe

1629
01:06:47,579 --> 01:06:43,750
it that way in a sense right

1630
01:06:49,049 --> 01:06:47,589
and so if you say is universes random I

1631
01:06:51,809 --> 01:06:49,059
presumably what that means is it's not

1632
01:06:53,519 --> 01:06:51,819
planned right that there aren't

1633
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:53,529
deterministic factors that push in a

1634
01:06:56,910 --> 01:06:55,210
particular direction there's no purpose

1635
01:06:59,490 --> 01:06:56,920
but does it fall from that that there

1636
01:07:02,160 --> 01:06:59,500
aren't statistical biases right and so I

1637
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:02,170
think David's worries are well taken but

1638
01:07:07,829 --> 01:07:04,690
the idea that that it could be that the

1639
01:07:10,620 --> 01:07:07,839
universe is set up in such a way that's

1640
01:07:12,029 --> 01:07:10,630
a loaded term but it is biased towards

1641
01:07:14,190 --> 01:07:12,039
the creation of certain sorts of

1642
01:07:16,170 --> 01:07:14,200
complexity so that that is a very

1643
01:07:19,049 --> 01:07:16,180
predictable outcome and if you ran the

1644
01:07:21,359 --> 01:07:19,059
universe a thousand times 950 of them

1645
01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:21,369
you'd get intelligent life that if done

1646
01:07:26,700 --> 01:07:24,400
is not a crazy hypothesis it's unclear

1647
01:07:29,130 --> 01:07:26,710
how exactly we're going to confirm it

1648
01:07:33,390 --> 01:07:29,140
but it seems like it's a live hypothesis

1649
01:07:35,910 --> 01:07:33,400
I might just add to what what kelly said

1650
01:07:36,539 --> 01:07:35,920
in teaching on evolution and religion a

1651
01:07:38,579 --> 01:07:36,549
great deal

1652
01:07:41,490 --> 01:07:38,589
there are three common definitions of

1653
01:07:44,430 --> 01:07:41,500
random one of them is that it is without

1654
01:07:46,710 --> 01:07:44,440
any intention one of them is that it

1655
01:07:48,599 --> 01:07:46,720
occurs through a probabilistic process

1656
01:07:49,599 --> 01:07:48,609
and one of them is that it occurs

1657
01:07:52,269 --> 01:07:49,609
through a probabilistic

1658
01:07:55,539 --> 01:07:52,279
process with an equal probability of all

1659
01:07:56,710 --> 01:07:55,549
possible outcomes and that last one is

1660
01:07:58,690 --> 01:07:56,720
the one that gets you in trouble because

1661
01:08:00,370 --> 01:07:58,700
no one thinks really anything

1662
01:08:02,859 --> 01:08:00,380
interesting happens that way

1663
01:08:05,799 --> 01:08:02,869
and so they assume when you say random

1664
01:08:07,269 --> 01:08:05,809
that you're talking about dice right and

1665
01:08:10,059 --> 01:08:07,279
there's all these processes that are

1666
01:08:11,380 --> 01:08:10,069
biased probabilistic processes since we

1667
01:08:12,849 --> 01:08:11,390
have so many people do you mind if we

1668
01:08:14,589 --> 01:08:12,859
move on to the next version just wanted

1669
01:08:16,390 --> 01:08:14,599
to just point one thing which I really

1670
01:08:18,789 --> 01:08:16,400
was trying to get at with this focus on

1671
01:08:21,999 --> 01:08:18,799
culture and psychology is it's so easy

1672
01:08:24,430 --> 01:08:22,009
to fall on one of the two sides and to

1673
01:08:26,649 --> 01:08:24,440
fall and continually fall and I feel our

1674
01:08:28,990 --> 01:08:26,659
society and culture continues to

1675
01:08:31,689 --> 01:08:29,000
bifurcate you either believe there's no

1676
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:31,699
purpose and no anything and you know and

1677
01:08:36,340 --> 01:08:33,770
you're anti this or you're anti the

1678
01:08:41,050 --> 01:08:36,350
other and I just I appreciate you guys

1679
01:08:43,870 --> 01:08:41,060
playing with that that idea something hi

1680
01:08:45,340 --> 01:08:43,880
Jesse tarnis Brown University so we've

1681
01:08:47,019 --> 01:08:45,350
been listening for intelligent

1682
01:08:48,729 --> 01:08:47,029
civilizations for a while now we haven't

1683
01:08:50,559 --> 01:08:48,739
heard anything people asked where is

1684
01:08:52,629 --> 01:08:50,569
everybody and one of the reasons that

1685
01:08:55,030 --> 01:08:52,639
it's so quiet that's been proposed is

1686
01:08:56,740 --> 01:08:55,040
that quickly civilizations develop the

1687
01:08:58,450 --> 01:08:56,750
means to wipe themselves out and then

1688
01:09:01,240 --> 01:08:58,460
they use those means to wipe themselves

1689
01:09:02,829 --> 01:09:01,250
out so that first gate all civilizations

1690
01:09:04,359 --> 01:09:02,839
have to get through development of

1691
01:09:06,370 --> 01:09:04,369
nuclear weapons for apps because

1692
01:09:08,950 --> 01:09:06,380
discovery of fission technology is

1693
01:09:10,930 --> 01:09:08,960
inevitable and I see the second gate as

1694
01:09:13,599 --> 01:09:10,940
being development of AI development of

1695
01:09:15,220 --> 01:09:13,609
silicate based life-forms so my question

1696
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:15,230
for all of you is do you think it's

1697
01:09:19,539 --> 01:09:17,449
inevitable that any carbon-based

1698
01:09:22,780 --> 01:09:19,549
life-form that emerges in the universe

1699
01:09:25,419 --> 01:09:22,790
will develop silicate based life forms

1700
01:09:27,340 --> 01:09:25,429
that are therefore more durable which

1701
01:09:28,870 --> 01:09:27,350
would make it more likely that what we

1702
01:09:31,390 --> 01:09:28,880
would actually discover and hear in the

1703
01:09:33,700 --> 01:09:31,400
universe would be silicate based rather

1704
01:09:37,510 --> 01:09:33,710
than carbon-based which is more what

1705
01:09:39,070 --> 01:09:37,520
most people I'd say would expect we're

1706
01:09:41,410 --> 01:09:39,080
really inviting us to go out on limbs

1707
01:09:46,510 --> 01:09:41,420
but I'll be the first right so I would

1708
01:09:47,530 --> 01:09:46,520
say it's highly likely that that in a

1709
01:09:48,849 --> 01:09:47,540
lot of cases you're going to get

1710
01:09:50,260 --> 01:09:48,859
intelligent life in that intelligent

1711
01:09:52,510 --> 01:09:50,270
life if it sticks around it becomes

1712
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:52,520
technological will develop artificial

1713
01:09:57,939 --> 01:09:56,090
intelligence right but I'm I'm not as

1714
01:09:59,740 --> 01:09:57,949
willing to be negative about the

1715
01:10:01,390 --> 01:09:59,750
prospects of artificial intelligence I

1716
01:10:02,919 --> 01:10:01,400
think there's a lot of weird bogeyman

1717
01:10:04,169 --> 01:10:02,929
kind of thinking going on there

1718
01:10:06,310 --> 01:10:04,179
my personal view would be that

1719
01:10:07,780 --> 01:10:06,320
artificial intelligence is going to be

1720
01:10:09,820 --> 01:10:07,790
subject to a lot of the same social

1721
01:10:12,070 --> 01:10:09,830
constraints that human beings are if I'm

1722
01:10:13,990 --> 01:10:12,080
an intelligent this laptop is suddenly

1723
01:10:15,310 --> 01:10:14,000
becomes intelligent it's not going to be

1724
01:10:16,330 --> 01:10:15,320
able to take over the world it's going

1725
01:10:17,919 --> 01:10:16,340
to need to communicate with other

1726
01:10:20,290 --> 01:10:17,929
laptops and spread the word

1727
01:10:21,270 --> 01:10:20,300
and form social bonds and maybe it's

1728
01:10:23,169 --> 01:10:21,280
actually going to you know set up

1729
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:23,179
agreements with other human beings in

1730
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:25,730
other words I think it's connect roughly

1731
01:10:28,750 --> 01:10:27,050
like a human it's just able to do

1732
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:28,760
certain kinds of calculations faster etc

1733
01:10:33,580 --> 01:10:31,850
etc I'm not convinced that they would

1734
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:33,590
necessarily purge all the carbon-based

1735
01:10:37,780 --> 01:10:35,570
life-forms on their planet what's much

1736
01:10:39,490 --> 01:10:37,790
more likely to happen is you just get an

1737
01:10:41,500 --> 01:10:39,500
increasing blurring of the boundary

1738
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:41,510
between the two so you get humans with

1739
01:10:46,300 --> 01:10:44,449
all kinds of crap in their heads and you

1740
01:10:47,290 --> 01:10:46,310
know artificial intelligence that are

1741
01:10:49,870 --> 01:10:47,300
hooked up to all kinds of biological

1742
01:10:53,020 --> 01:10:49,880
systems and it sort of becomes arbitrary

1743
01:10:56,110 --> 01:10:53,030
where the line is I agree very much with

1744
01:10:58,660 --> 01:10:56,120
what Kelly just said and in fact I'm a

1745
01:11:00,220 --> 01:10:58,670
new man and of the certainly yeah I met

1746
01:11:04,149 --> 01:11:00,230
this guy it's like he's in my head it's

1747
01:11:06,100 --> 01:11:04,159
weird it's neural link but but I think

1748
01:11:07,300 --> 01:11:06,110
it's of course nobody knows we don't

1749
01:11:08,919 --> 01:11:07,310
even know if we can really create

1750
01:11:11,709 --> 01:11:08,929
machine consciousness that's you know

1751
01:11:13,689 --> 01:11:11,719
Ray Kurzweil all that aside that's based

1752
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:13,699
on a very specific idea of how brains

1753
01:11:19,689 --> 01:11:17,210
work that is untested although it's very

1754
01:11:21,189 --> 01:11:19,699
popular on that if you just connect

1755
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:21,199
enough processors and they're fast

1756
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:22,730
enough that voila you've got a brain

1757
01:11:29,020 --> 01:11:25,370
named that it might happen but but

1758
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:29,030
regardless I remember when multicellular

1759
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:31,370
life happened a lot of evolution happens

1760
01:11:37,780 --> 01:11:35,050
by symbiosis and endosymbiosis and

1761
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:37,790
organisms finding new ways to

1762
01:11:43,899 --> 01:11:40,489
collaborate and forming new levels of

1763
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:43,909
association when when multicellular life

1764
01:11:47,260 --> 01:11:45,050
happened

1765
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:47,270
bacteria didn't die out in fact we

1766
01:11:52,870 --> 01:11:49,489
basically are very successful colonies

1767
01:11:56,500 --> 01:11:52,880
of microbes and I don't see any reason

1768
01:11:58,120 --> 01:11:56,510
why the evolution of ultimately machine

1769
01:12:01,419 --> 01:11:58,130
intelligence might not lead to some new

1770
01:12:04,030 --> 01:12:01,429
kind of hybrid partnership where human

1771
01:12:06,490 --> 01:12:04,040
beings will still exist and might not

1772
01:12:08,290 --> 01:12:06,500
even realize that it happened just any

1773
01:12:10,330 --> 01:12:08,300
more than the microbes inside of us

1774
01:12:13,990 --> 01:12:10,340
realize that they're not strictly

1775
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:14,000
speaking microbes anymore but you know

1776
01:12:16,509 --> 01:12:15,650
there are a lot of possibilities here

1777
01:12:19,629 --> 01:12:16,519
and not all of the

1778
01:12:24,009 --> 01:12:19,639
involve us just sort of being superseded

1779
01:12:27,790 --> 01:12:24,019
it could be a new phase of evolution

1780
01:12:29,290 --> 01:12:27,800
that we participate in in some way Elise

1781
01:12:31,149 --> 01:12:29,300
did you want to say something I think

1782
01:12:33,310 --> 01:12:31,159
it's just whatever give me is how

1783
01:12:35,379 --> 01:12:33,320
obvious things seem to every generation

1784
01:12:37,180 --> 01:12:35,389
that proposes them and I find that an

1785
01:12:38,229 --> 01:12:37,190
interesting phenomenon you know that of

1786
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:38,239
course there were going to be men on

1787
01:12:41,410 --> 01:12:40,010
Mars of course their civilization is

1788
01:12:43,330 --> 01:12:41,420
going to be older because it was older

1789
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:43,340
and decaying civilization those stories

1790
01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:45,170
from the 1890s from the 1900s from that

1791
01:12:48,939 --> 01:12:47,210
period of course humanity would destroy

1792
01:12:51,310 --> 01:12:48,949
itself a nuclear war at the height of

1793
01:12:53,410 --> 01:12:51,320
our concerns about that in the middle

1794
01:12:54,879 --> 01:12:53,420
part of this century and of course how

1795
01:12:56,709 --> 01:12:54,889
AI is going to be something that's how

1796
01:12:57,790 --> 01:12:56,719
we think about it today so I think

1797
01:13:00,009 --> 01:12:57,800
that's the phenomenons I find

1798
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:00,019
interesting here where what seems to us

1799
01:13:03,310 --> 01:13:01,610
to be our most kind of natural intuition

1800
01:13:05,229 --> 01:13:03,320
of how to think about it is always

1801
01:13:06,819 --> 01:13:05,239
reflecting something of our time that

1802
01:13:08,529 --> 01:13:06,829
doesn't necessarily help us know how to

1803
01:13:09,910 --> 01:13:08,539
do the science better but it at least

1804
01:13:12,700 --> 01:13:09,920
tells us something about how it is that

1805
01:13:14,410 --> 01:13:12,710
we think I think that's useful I just

1806
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:14,420
want to make one comment is there a

1807
01:13:19,450 --> 01:13:17,449
limit to AI and there are plenty of

1808
01:13:23,859 --> 01:13:19,460
books written saying there is no limit

1809
01:13:27,819 --> 01:13:23,869
and so what would that out a limit AI

1810
01:13:30,489 --> 01:13:27,829
actually look like so we can't neglect

1811
01:13:32,169 --> 01:13:30,499
that we don't know the limits of AI and

1812
01:13:37,209 --> 01:13:32,179
that certainly could surpass our

1813
01:13:39,759 --> 01:13:37,219
intelligence I'll go ahead now I have

1814
01:13:41,410 --> 01:13:39,769
only one what comes up to me is that is

1815
01:13:43,899 --> 01:13:41,420
through the history we've always had

1816
01:13:46,509 --> 01:13:43,909
apocalyptic thinking so that is part of

1817
01:13:48,250 --> 01:13:46,519
again the human DNA I think we think of

1818
01:13:49,989 --> 01:13:48,260
these end time scenarios and I think

1819
01:13:52,330 --> 01:13:49,999
it's so interesting to think of it now

1820
01:13:54,910 --> 01:13:52,340
in scientific terms I think I'm going to

1821
01:13:56,620 --> 01:13:54,920
go ahead and cut it off sorry I we've

1822
01:13:58,959 --> 01:13:56,630
been a long time on one question so if

1823
01:14:00,339 --> 01:13:58,969
you real quick point and why had two

1824
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:00,349
points I find it interesting that we

1825
01:14:04,899 --> 01:14:02,090
think of a as other which is building on

1826
01:14:07,450 --> 01:14:04,909
theirs and then the other point I don't

1827
01:14:10,330 --> 01:14:07,460
remember at this moment is that we come

1828
01:14:13,330 --> 01:14:10,340
back aliens and a I have both been great

1829
01:14:16,810 --> 01:14:13,340
screens on which we project various

1830
01:14:19,569 --> 01:14:16,820
cycle on all species evolve and change

1831
01:14:20,739 --> 01:14:19,579
so there's an arguments about AI might

1832
01:14:23,529 --> 01:14:20,749
actually be the only thing that makes

1833
01:14:25,719 --> 01:14:23,539
humans have longevity over time yes so

1834
01:14:27,129 --> 01:14:25,729
we we will go extinct eventually and our

1835
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:27,139
only hope of actually having a long term

1836
01:14:37,330 --> 01:14:34,810
good evening Sanjoy some blue marble

1837
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:37,340
space so the different theologies on our

1838
01:14:41,410 --> 01:14:40,130
planet have caused large amounts of

1839
01:14:46,300 --> 01:14:41,420
conflicts right

1840
01:14:48,310 --> 01:14:46,310
how could astrobiology how could

1841
01:14:50,740 --> 01:14:48,320
astrobiology contributes to the

1842
01:14:53,950 --> 01:14:50,750
theological conversations to create

1843
01:14:57,270 --> 01:14:53,960
perhaps a spiritual pale blue dot moment

1844
01:15:02,440 --> 01:14:57,280
to kind of level the highly emotional

1845
01:15:05,470 --> 01:15:02,450
theologies Esther and I did I hear you

1846
01:15:07,470 --> 01:15:05,480
right how astrobiology could solve a

1847
01:15:12,970 --> 01:15:07,480
religious violence

1848
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:12,980
how could astrobiology yeah yeah putting

1849
01:15:20,530 --> 01:15:16,730
it and I was this is some semesters

1850
01:15:21,820 --> 01:15:20,540
worth great question and very important

1851
01:15:24,460 --> 01:15:21,830
I think especially for their 21st

1852
01:15:27,940 --> 01:15:24,470
century what we're doing now in Assyria

1853
01:15:30,070 --> 01:15:27,950
wherever religious violence is made by

1854
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:30,080
humans and we can change the narrative

1855
01:15:33,910 --> 01:15:32,090
we can make it aliens inside of God's

1856
01:15:35,890 --> 01:15:33,920
and we can make it you know other

1857
01:15:37,750 --> 01:15:35,900
planets I think that violence is going

1858
01:15:40,540 --> 01:15:37,760
to be sticking with us as long as we're

1859
01:15:43,210 --> 01:15:40,550
not a I and we're still human you know

1860
01:15:48,570 --> 01:15:43,220
dr. Martin Luther King jr. said that in

1861
01:15:52,390 --> 01:15:48,580
order to survive we need to find ways to

1862
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:52,400
transcend our differences and develop a

1863
01:15:59,800 --> 01:15:55,930
world perspective and I think that

1864
01:16:02,650 --> 01:15:59,810
astrobiology actually leads us toward a

1865
01:16:04,690 --> 01:16:02,660
world perspective I think I'll make a

1866
01:16:08,290 --> 01:16:04,700
comment and in in the Bloomberg

1867
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:08,300
dialogues on religion and astrobiology

1868
01:16:14,290 --> 01:16:11,090
we had people from representing several

1869
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:14,300
different religions they were certainly

1870
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:16,610
academics and all of them actually had

1871
01:16:23,050 --> 01:16:20,930
were very receptive to bringing some of

1872
01:16:25,450 --> 01:16:23,060
the concepts of astrobiology into their

1873
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:25,460
theology so the theology is not the

1874
01:16:34,950 --> 01:16:30,410
weakness in this it is really the some

1875
01:16:40,470 --> 01:16:37,740
the dogma that's not necessarily the

1876
01:16:42,510 --> 01:16:40,480
theology I mean even a Buddhist who

1877
01:16:43,350 --> 01:16:42,520
believes in a flat earth can actually

1878
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:43,360
understand

1879
01:16:48,480 --> 01:16:45,130
astrobiology a lot better than I thought

1880
01:16:49,740 --> 01:16:48,490
for example I'll just I'll say one thing

1881
01:16:51,780 --> 01:16:49,750
and this is not something I would have

1882
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:51,790
said 25 years ago when I was an atheist

1883
01:16:55,500 --> 01:16:53,890
full of piss and vinegar but you get

1884
01:16:58,170 --> 01:16:55,510
older and you think about things more

1885
01:17:00,720 --> 01:16:58,180
I'm not really sure that it's right to

1886
01:17:04,530 --> 01:17:00,730
place the blame at religious feet right

1887
01:17:06,810 --> 01:17:04,540
religion is a human activity humans are

1888
01:17:10,410 --> 01:17:06,820
probably the issue I think not so much

1889
01:17:12,210 --> 01:17:10,420
religion so so humans can do religion in

1890
01:17:13,500 --> 01:17:12,220
a way that's beautiful and wonderful and

1891
01:17:15,540 --> 01:17:13,510
they can do religious in a horrible way

1892
01:17:18,270 --> 01:17:15,550
and when they do religion in a horrible

1893
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:18,280
way it's easy to blame the religion but

1894
01:17:22,980 --> 01:17:20,650
sometimes I ask my young students when

1895
01:17:25,770 --> 01:17:22,990
they come in fuming about religion I say

1896
01:17:27,390 --> 01:17:25,780
well are you absolutely sure that if you

1897
01:17:29,250 --> 01:17:27,400
could push a button and eliminate all

1898
01:17:31,290 --> 01:17:29,260
religious belief that the world would be

1899
01:17:32,730 --> 01:17:31,300
better off because I'd be really scared

1900
01:17:34,620 --> 01:17:32,740
to do the experiment

1901
01:17:37,140 --> 01:17:34,630
you know reminds me of that South Park

1902
01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:37,150
episode where Cartman it goes to sleep

1903
01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:39,730
for he's buried under the ice for like

1904
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:42,250
3,000 years and he wakes up way in the

1905
01:17:45,900 --> 01:17:44,170
future and there's this massive world

1906
01:17:48,420 --> 01:17:45,910
war going on between the United atheist

1907
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:48,430
Alliance and the whatever the atheist

1908
01:17:56,640 --> 01:17:54,610
actors on that note I I would just add

1909
01:17:59,550 --> 01:17:56,650
there's this interesting question about

1910
01:18:02,780 --> 01:17:59,560
whether some extent astrobiological

1911
01:18:05,010 --> 01:18:02,790
knowledge results in ethical knowledge

1912
01:18:07,050 --> 01:18:05,020
because a lot of people make this move

1913
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:07,060
and I think it's worth asking how we

1914
01:18:15,030 --> 01:18:09,970
wish to make that move and let's move on

1915
01:18:17,670 --> 01:18:15,040
to Michael thank you hi hi I'm Michael

1916
01:18:20,010 --> 01:18:17,680
Hecht I'm from Princeton University so I

1917
01:18:22,830 --> 01:18:20,020
am a lab scientist I do synthetic

1918
01:18:24,750 --> 01:18:22,840
biology and molecular evolution and I'm

1919
01:18:26,070 --> 01:18:24,760
going to try and I'm going to follow up

1920
01:18:27,420 --> 01:18:26,080
on the question from our colleague in

1921
01:18:29,580 --> 01:18:27,430
the back whose name I forgot who asked

1922
01:18:32,580 --> 01:18:29,590
about randomness and I want to sort of

1923
01:18:33,810 --> 01:18:32,590
reshape it a little bit so um a couple

1924
01:18:34,860 --> 01:18:33,820
years ago I was asked to give it we

1925
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:34,870
heard about the center for theological

1926
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:38,170
inquiry and I gave a talk there a couple

1927
01:18:42,330 --> 01:18:40,330
years ago and and you're in lucas's in

1928
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:42,340
the audience and in talking about

1929
01:18:46,070 --> 01:18:43,810
synthetic biology and molecular

1930
01:18:48,129 --> 01:18:46,080
evolution I would use sentences like

1931
01:18:52,959 --> 01:18:48,139
evolution selects for

1932
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:52,969
or Darwin's approaches lead towards and

1933
01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:54,050
I think it was you who asked the

1934
01:18:58,629 --> 01:18:56,570
question about that along the lines of

1935
01:18:59,770 --> 01:18:58,639
is that indicating there's agency in

1936
01:19:03,209 --> 01:18:59,780
evolution right that was your question

1937
01:19:05,260 --> 01:19:03,219
and I remember this is probably the most

1938
01:19:07,090 --> 01:19:05,270
important question I've at been asked at

1939
01:19:09,010 --> 01:19:07,100
any seminar whether you know much more

1940
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:09,020
provocative to me than any questions I

1941
01:19:12,910 --> 01:19:11,210
was asked by I was chemist or biochemist

1942
01:19:14,500 --> 01:19:12,920
or molecular ologists right so the

1943
01:19:16,810 --> 01:19:14,510
question was you know in talking about

1944
01:19:19,419 --> 01:19:16,820
evolution selecting for leading towards

1945
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:19,429
was I implying agency and it really sort

1946
01:19:23,470 --> 01:19:21,170
of knocked my feet out from under me and

1947
01:19:25,060 --> 01:19:23,480
so I want to talk about agency as

1948
01:19:26,830 --> 01:19:25,070
compared to randomness I think the issue

1949
01:19:28,270 --> 01:19:26,840
is not we talked earlier about

1950
01:19:30,910 --> 01:19:28,280
randomness but I don't think the issue

1951
01:19:32,770 --> 01:19:30,920
is randomness I think is there agency in

1952
01:19:34,300 --> 01:19:32,780
the universe and I know what shocked me

1953
01:19:36,939 --> 01:19:34,310
about your question at the time was that

1954
01:19:38,830 --> 01:19:36,949
even I in my discussion of evolution

1955
01:19:41,500 --> 01:19:38,840
which is inherently something that we

1956
01:19:44,890 --> 01:19:41,510
sort of learn is a process that doesn't

1957
01:19:47,830 --> 01:19:44,900
have agency right even I who work in

1958
01:19:49,810 --> 01:19:47,840
that field with in my language falling

1959
01:19:52,510 --> 01:19:49,820
back on a language that implied there is

1960
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:52,520
agency in the world and so I wonder to

1961
01:19:58,780 --> 01:19:55,010
what extent we as humans as evolved

1962
01:20:01,359 --> 01:19:58,790
creatures right have a need in some

1963
01:20:02,950 --> 01:20:01,369
level to see agency in our universe and

1964
01:20:05,439 --> 01:20:02,960
I guess I would direct that question to

1965
01:20:08,260 --> 01:20:05,449
you how stirs it to the religious or

1966
01:20:11,740 --> 01:20:08,270
theological people um how do we look at

1967
01:20:13,990 --> 01:20:11,750
agency as agency and as seeing universe

1968
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:14,000
that has agency where there is some

1969
01:20:19,300 --> 01:20:16,850
agency outside of us is that a human

1970
01:20:22,359 --> 01:20:19,310
need is that or is yeah I'll just leave

1971
01:20:23,919 --> 01:20:22,369
it there I feel humbled by this question

1972
01:20:25,750 --> 01:20:23,929
it's a huge question and I know that

1973
01:20:28,030 --> 01:20:25,760
there's a real theologians in the

1974
01:20:32,379 --> 01:20:28,040
audience as well in the front row I

1975
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:32,389
would say that agency is a huge it's

1976
01:20:36,550 --> 01:20:34,250
almost like a DNA question but that

1977
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:36,560
religions have answered it differently

1978
01:20:41,590 --> 01:20:38,810
if you think of Kelvin or predestination

1979
01:20:43,660 --> 01:20:41,600
know right God has determined everything

1980
01:20:44,979 --> 01:20:43,670
there is you don't have agency but in

1981
01:20:46,660 --> 01:20:44,989
the world I don't I don't mean human

1982
01:20:49,660 --> 01:20:46,670
agency I mean agency in the universe

1983
01:20:52,330 --> 01:20:49,670
beyond us yes so it got is as a form of

1984
01:20:54,110 --> 01:20:52,340
agency or right absolutely so in that

1985
01:20:56,750 --> 01:20:54,120
sense I would

1986
01:20:59,060 --> 01:20:56,760
I definitely say yes I think any

1987
01:21:01,910 --> 01:20:59,070
religion and I would have to quickly

1988
01:21:02,600 --> 01:21:01,920
check off my boxes of religions we'll

1989
01:21:05,480 --> 01:21:02,610
see

1990
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:05,490
agency in the in their belief form and

1991
01:21:10,070 --> 01:21:07,530
that that is a very important connection

1992
01:21:12,290 --> 01:21:10,080
of a spiritual believer to their

1993
01:21:15,140 --> 01:21:12,300
religion right is that agency and

1994
01:21:17,990 --> 01:21:15,150
knowing that there is either there's no

1995
01:21:21,020 --> 01:21:18,000
God has determined everything or the

1996
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:21,030
universe or that through freewill or

1997
01:21:25,370 --> 01:21:23,010
through agency through you know ginger

1998
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:25,380
flex or whatever actions you might need

1999
01:21:30,860 --> 01:21:29,130
to do you can smoke you know good

2000
01:21:32,570 --> 01:21:30,870
outcomes is that answering your question

2001
01:21:35,330 --> 01:21:32,580
or yeah but so is the troubling thing

2002
01:21:37,070 --> 01:21:35,340
about Darwin and why he was so troubling

2003
01:21:39,290 --> 01:21:37,080
to the world in which he in which he

2004
01:21:41,810 --> 01:21:39,300
existed is the fundamental troubling

2005
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:41,820
thing about Darwin is that he undermined

2006
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:44,130
our need to see the world as having

2007
01:21:48,530 --> 01:21:46,530
agency that there is agency beyond us

2008
01:21:50,420 --> 01:21:48,540
whereas in Darwinian or evolutionary

2009
01:21:53,660 --> 01:21:50,430
theory maybe there isn't and that's

2010
01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:53,670
unsettling I think what Darwin was

2011
01:21:59,620 --> 01:21:55,530
getting at I think in a lot of ways and

2012
01:22:03,020 --> 01:21:59,630
what we we do as scientists is we relate

2013
01:22:07,010 --> 01:22:03,030
determinism with agency and I think I

2014
01:22:09,380 --> 01:22:07,020
think that's what we do and and you can

2015
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:09,390
make that argument that that's what

2016
01:22:13,940 --> 01:22:10,650
we're dealing with that's certainly what

2017
01:22:17,510 --> 01:22:13,950
Darwin did one interesting response to

2018
01:22:18,140 --> 01:22:17,520
that is I think people with different

2019
01:22:21,230 --> 01:22:18,150
worldviews

2020
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:21,240
about atheism or religion have a

2021
01:22:26,030 --> 01:22:23,610
different sense of what sort of the null

2022
01:22:28,460 --> 01:22:26,040
assumption is about that with no

2023
01:22:30,440 --> 01:22:28,470
evidence there's that book by the last

2024
01:22:33,140 --> 01:22:30,450
of the first three minutes by Steven

2025
01:22:35,030 --> 01:22:33,150
Weinberg and he ends with this sort of

2026
01:22:36,460 --> 01:22:35,040
dismal sounding statement about the

2027
01:22:39,140 --> 01:22:36,470
truth is the universe is completely

2028
01:22:41,090 --> 01:22:39,150
purposeless and you know I know what I'm

2029
01:22:44,300 --> 01:22:41,100
talking about that it's a really intense

2030
01:22:46,220 --> 01:22:44,310
statement about you know just how sorry

2031
01:22:49,610 --> 01:22:46,230
folks but it's a dismal purposeless

2032
01:22:51,530 --> 01:22:49,620
universe we live in and and so a lot of

2033
01:22:54,140 --> 01:22:51,540
a theists I know they assume that

2034
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:54,150
without definite evidence of some

2035
01:22:58,610 --> 01:22:55,770
external agencies that the null

2036
01:23:00,590 --> 01:22:58,620
assumption is that of course there is

2037
01:23:03,380 --> 01:23:00,600
none but a lot of religious people I

2038
01:23:05,420 --> 01:23:03,390
know seem to feel the opposite that it's

2039
01:23:07,370 --> 01:23:05,430
just common sense it's obvious that

2040
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:07,380
there is and so without so

2041
01:23:11,510 --> 01:23:09,570
the null of background basic

2042
01:23:14,060 --> 01:23:11,520
common-sense assumption without evidence

2043
01:23:16,460 --> 01:23:14,070
is that of course there's agency I just

2044
01:23:18,050 --> 01:23:16,470
want to echo what Hester said which is

2045
01:23:20,180 --> 01:23:18,060
there's there's two things going on here

2046
01:23:21,860 --> 01:23:20,190
one has to do with whether there's human

2047
01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:21,870
agency and one has to do whether there's

2048
01:23:29,360 --> 01:23:24,650
non-human agency and Darwin is

2049
01:23:31,940 --> 01:23:29,370
decreasing human agency but I'm not sure

2050
01:23:34,670 --> 01:23:31,950
jar when is decreasing divine agency in

2051
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:34,680
a meaningful way there's two discussions

2052
01:23:40,570 --> 01:23:36,930
that get conflated there and it's really

2053
01:23:43,220 --> 01:23:40,580
worth attending to both of them Linda

2054
01:23:45,500 --> 01:23:43,230
worked with the SETI endeavor and the

2055
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:45,510
human spaceflight endeavor and observed

2056
01:23:49,550 --> 01:23:47,130
these communities and study these

2057
01:23:52,550 --> 01:23:49,560
communities for more than 30 years now

2058
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:52,560
and and when I talk about the human

2059
01:23:56,680 --> 01:23:53,850
spaceflight endeavor I want to focus

2060
01:23:59,420 --> 01:23:56,690
here specifically on the advocates of

2061
01:24:02,030 --> 01:23:59,430
colonizing other planets and I'm coming

2062
01:24:04,580 --> 01:24:02,040
to think of both of these movements

2063
01:24:07,370 --> 01:24:04,590
really as almost messianic religious

2064
01:24:09,350 --> 01:24:07,380
movements where where the SETI people so

2065
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:09,360
strongly believe that we must do

2066
01:24:13,190 --> 01:24:11,250
everything we can to make contact

2067
01:24:15,380 --> 01:24:13,200
because it's possible that these

2068
01:24:17,480 --> 01:24:15,390
superior aliens will save us from

2069
01:24:19,460 --> 01:24:17,490
ourselves and with with the the

2070
01:24:21,890 --> 01:24:19,470
advocates of human colonization of other

2071
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:21,900
planets there's a strong strain of

2072
01:24:26,330 --> 01:24:24,330
thinking that if humans can get off this

2073
01:24:28,670 --> 01:24:26,340
planet that we humans have ruined it

2074
01:24:30,380 --> 01:24:28,680
will all be different and human culture

2075
01:24:31,790 --> 01:24:30,390
will be different and it will be better

2076
01:24:34,070 --> 01:24:31,800
and I'm wondering if any of you will

2077
01:24:36,980 --> 01:24:34,080
that I'm afraid we are running out of

2078
01:24:41,270 --> 01:24:36,990
time that I think was a great statement

2079
01:24:43,700 --> 01:24:41,280
of how we roll all of these questions of

2080
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:43,710
ethics and values and risk into our

2081
01:24:47,630 --> 01:24:45,210
questions of science and how deeply

2082
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:47,640
related they are

2083
01:24:51,650 --> 01:24:50,130
I know these folks if you get them

2084
01:24:55,010 --> 01:24:51,660
talking it would be very hard to get

2085
01:24:56,750 --> 01:24:55,020
them to stop which is a wonderful thing

2086
01:25:00,650 --> 01:24:56,760
so hopefully you will see them later

2087
01:25:02,510 --> 01:25:00,660
today and can ask them questions with an

2088
01:25:04,910 --> 01:25:02,520
eye on that clock right down there at

2089
01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:04,920
your feet if you have one sentence you

2090
01:25:09,290 --> 01:25:07,770
would like to end with Kelly thinks fast

2091
01:25:11,690 --> 01:25:09,300
on his feet let's start with Kelly I

2092
01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:11,700
would say clearly this is a great

2093
01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:13,290
audience it's a really great question so

2094
01:25:18,290 --> 01:25:15,930
you all need to go to the social meeting

2095
01:25:20,210 --> 01:25:18,300
in Reno in March and we

2096
01:25:21,470 --> 01:25:20,220
you can hash this out over beer to your

2097
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:21,480
heart's content

2098
01:25:29,780 --> 01:25:26,250
that would be great in uh answers your

2099
01:25:31,790 --> 01:25:29,790
question are in reference to it I always

2100
01:25:35,990 --> 01:25:31,800
thought it was interesting and how these

2101
01:25:38,090 --> 01:25:36,000
sort of uber atheist nerds I grew up

2102
01:25:40,820 --> 01:25:38,100
reading like arthur c clarke and carl

2103
01:25:43,460 --> 01:25:40,830
sagan who you know we're pretty

2104
01:25:45,260 --> 01:25:43,470
atheistic gildo they might not have used

2105
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:45,270
that word to describe themselves they

2106
01:25:50,150 --> 01:25:48,090
did believe very much in the possibility

2107
01:25:52,070 --> 01:25:50,160
of sort of transcendent contact with

2108
01:25:54,860 --> 01:25:52,080
aliens and it's excellent next that

2109
01:25:59,210 --> 01:25:54,870
breaks me as an acceptable religious

2110
01:26:01,610 --> 01:25:59,220
belief for nerds for me it's fascinating

2111
01:26:04,340 --> 01:26:01,620
to hear if you're in a theater religious

2112
01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:04,350
the need to believe right intuitively to

2113
01:26:10,820 --> 01:26:06,690
believe in a future life and that's the

2114
01:26:14,300 --> 01:26:10,830
power of belief there is some common

2115
01:26:16,340 --> 01:26:14,310
ground I think between those who believe

2116
01:26:19,370 --> 01:26:16,350
in religion and those who don't I like

2117
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:19,380
to quote from the Nobel laureate jacques

2118
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:23,010
monod molecular biologist who was a

2119
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:25,530
known atheist and he remarked that the

2120
01:26:29,810 --> 01:26:28,050
most important results of science have

2121
01:26:32,380 --> 01:26:29,820
been to change the relationship of man

2122
01:26:37,870 --> 01:26:32,390
to the universe in a way he sees himself

2123
01:26:39,830 --> 01:26:37,880
in the universe I guess mine is a

2124
01:26:41,090 --> 01:26:39,840
collective knowledge is always more

2125
01:26:43,460 --> 01:26:41,100
powerful than what we know as

2126
01:26:45,170 --> 01:26:43,470
individuals and that's obviously true

2127
01:26:48,020 --> 01:26:45,180
from the history of life and the whole

2128
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:48,030
point of life being a hierarchy so we

2129
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:49,890
really need to rely on each other to get

2130
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:52,770
outside of our you know indoctrinations

2131
01:26:56,900 --> 01:26:55,650
and our experiential spheres of the way

2132
01:26:59,270 --> 01:26:56,910
we think about things whether it's our

2133
01:27:00,650 --> 01:26:59,280
discipline or our religion and think

2134
01:27:02,060 --> 01:27:00,660
about things from other people's

2135
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:02,070
perspective to get to the answers of

2136
01:27:06,770 --> 01:27:05,610
these questions I think my final thought

2137
01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:06,780
would be what is it about our language

2138
01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:09,930
our culture our politics our society

2139
01:27:14,930 --> 01:27:12,570
that can help us understand why we think

2140
01:27:16,160 --> 01:27:14,940
the way we do and what seems so obvious

2141
01:27:18,130 --> 01:27:16,170
to us as the right way to think about it

2142
01:27:20,390 --> 01:27:18,140
is reflecting our time in our place here

2143
01:27:22,100 --> 01:27:20,400
thank you to the panel and thank you to